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Archive through October 24, 2011

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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Well-known member
Nov 12, 2001
Dennis Frisk
NIC - Your comment about "How FAST can You SPEND" is true in ALL motorized competition. SON & I raced R/C very actively for several years about 12-15 yrs ago. SON beat a couple nationally ranks sponsored drivers in 1/10th scale elec. 4WD touring car at our local club races. The class was new to our area, and every week a new hot tire for the class was coming out. The guys who worked at the hobby shops always had them, and their buddies, same thing with the newer higher milliamp batteries. SON Placed 62nd out of 175-180 in 1/10th scale elec. 2WD truck racing at a National event at Lake in the Hills, IL in about 1997 or '98. All the sponsored team racers you read about in Radio Control Car Action were in the first 40-50 positions. They NEVER run a set of tires & wheels more than once. We tried to nurse them a whole season. What you say about getting how ever much HP your making to the ground is correct. Some of SON's best races were when he was down on HP compared to the competition.

I talked at length with Don Vogt several years ago about his in-house dyno and how he dyno's engines. You're correct, all billet alloy steel crank, billet alum rod, heavy-duty fin-less block, billet flywheel with no cooling blower fins. You couldn't mow your lawn for long with one of his engines. I was buying a used K321 from him to build up a Killer Kohler. We have different "Perspectives" on engine design and tuning, but I ran my old K241 for 12-14 hours STRAIGHT before at close to full load and that colors my views on things. I will say if I had to have any serious work done on my PSD in my pickup DON would be my first choice of mechanic if he'd work on it.
Is it possible to convert a wide base kohler 16 horse engine to a narrow base? I have an idea of what I would need to do so I was just wondering if anyone has tried it and if they have any tips for me.

I try to remind all of the current and future competitors in our little club to just have fun and work on balance. I see countless guys buying the best "looking" shiny parts they can find from MWSC including brand new pro tires long before they even loss the stock points on the engine.

Ex: there is a great, really mean looking cub in our club that sounds great. but he has yet to ever get the thing really off idle. (Since I am the owner of the club I don't get involved with any of the guys tuning.) I finally noticed during his last pull that he had an Autozone Accel chrome coil on it. But stock points. I wanted so bad to tell him that his engine required a resistor coil to run. He was blowing through the points so bad it was arcing off the cover. He just wanted a chrome coil...

They most effective guy in our club does nothing but put gas in his accurately tuned 14hp and watches the track and sled setup like a hawk. He moves around 10# to 15# from front to rear depending on what I do to the sled. (within each wt class of course.) Yes he has pro tires, And I bet he has a set of pulling gears from MWSC. And he pulls just up to around 4000 rpm. And he has taking home more than half our trophies in the past few years. (its great cause hes probably in his 70s!)

The best advice I can give to any that will listen is this:

Go to the track and pull. Figure out your Wt balance and tire pressure until you run out of power. Then spend a little money to add some power until you run out of traction. Then buy better tires. Then tune and balance until you need more power. (rinse.... and repeat.) until your nearly out of your class rules. Only spend what you can afford and pay attention to every detail of what is happening to the track. All the pullers here know this by heart. But the new guys seem to look right over the easy stuff like tire pressure.

I highly respect Don and what he has done to the sport. But I agree that I also have different "perspectives" on engine design and tuning. I will probably never have the chance to pull against him though. He's to big for my club and I have no dreams of going NQS.
Todd, I enjoyed your link. Once more you have come through with useful and succinct information.
Just Wondering, Can Originals be converted into a puller or does the belt slip?

Absolutely. There are various ways to get around belt slippage problem.

1. You can just keep a new belt on it and make sure it stays tight.

2. You can fab up a couple double belt pulleys to increase the bite.

3. The most popular way: Most guys just switch to a chain drive. A couple of sprockets and a good chain from the farm store will eliminate any and all slippage!
I should note though, If your going to modify the drive of the "O" for pulling. Make sure it's legal in whatever club you plan to pull in.

Also, If you do go to a chain, make sure you have a good, thick chain guard going all the way around it. Nobody wants to get hit with a 15lb chain coming off an engine turning 4000 rpm.
In my experience pulling a plow with an Original, the clutch tends to slip WAY before the belt ever will.

Even then, that only happens if you happen to drop the old girl into 3rd gear and let er rip with 10" of Brinly steel buried deep in the ground.

Or so they tell me.....
I was just wondering if there would be much or any benefit of putting a locked differential in my stock 16 horse pulling tractor. I know that it will make it harder to turn and wear the tires faster but I have one laying around and was just wondering if I should use it.

That depends on what happens with your current open diff. Do you repeatedly end your pull with one wheel losing grip and spinning out? If so, a fully locked rear end will stop all of that.

It won't wear your tires any faster assuming your only running the thing around on dirt. (The dirt is alot softer than your tire compund) It will turn like crap.

As usual, check your club rules.

My opinion? I wouldn't have a tractor without a locked rearend. then I don't have to worry about 1 wheel spinning out.
NIC - That's interesting about the locked rearend. Most of the stock diesel full size pullers (non-component tractors) run needle bearing differentials so they can use their steering brakes. But then "Body English" doesn't effect the larger tractors.
Our club does not allow locked rear ends, I don't often see any body spinning out on one side or the other, I've would be interested to see a locked rear end after one has come apart, I wonder if it makes as many pieces as one that is stock, I know I've broke enough carriers
i have anybody run 25 hp command i have some questions about fins oh the flywheel if i put the hub on and put the six lug driver on it hits the fins think about putting on the mill and cut them down
Mick, Does it a "locked" rear end make a big mess. YES. but this assumes that most guys just weld the spider gears to the carrier. Personally I run a MWSC spool and axels. I don't think I'll ever make enough power to gernate that bad boy.

Steven, just a suggestion... try using punctuation. I can barely decipher that "sentence". As for your question, Is this going to be used for pulling only? If so, mill those babies right off there. Most pulling flywheels don't have any. But if you plan on running the tractor for more than 30minutes at a time under any kind of load, trimming the fins may result in an overheated engine and broken parts.

Here in Missouri, we run on alot of clay and what is known around here as "black-stick"...just horrible soil. So it tends to get real streaky. The pan on the sled and the constant leveling and rolling turns the dirt so hard you can very literally leave black marks on it. But streaks will form where the crust tends to break up. So guys actally have to drive for traction.

Body english works fairly well with a locked rear end, but the tractor usually goes alot straighter to begin with even during a wheelie because both tires are always spinning the same speed. What I see alot around here is guys will lean to help steer the tractor, unloading the other tire and spinning it out, losing alot of momentum or ending the run all together. Equal tire pressure becomes more of a factor running spooled too. Even .25" of diameter difference will turn you down the track.

Nearly every tractor that takes home one of our trophies is welded up or spooled. It iss a lucky run when a guy grabs a podium spot with out one.

Hey Mick, you should come out to MO and run in our club. I don't understand clubs that have such silly rules like "NO LOCKED REAR". Even if it is just welded, it doesn't make the tractor any less safe.

Another rule that really bugs me is no lug tires or "aftermarket" tires. WTF? I'm going to get turned away because I have on a new set of Vogel TT 23x10.5 tires? I can understand barring Pro tires, but not any bar tire.

Allowing aftermarket parts helps keep our sport moving forward, perserves our exisiting factory parts that are quickly going NLA, and make competition better. Can you think of any real motorsport that disallows aftermarket parts that isn't only for powder-puff night anyways? Any good sport sets rules and let's guys see how far they can bend them.
NIC - The first tractor pull I ever saw was a garden tractor pull on CONCRETE. The guy who ran the local lawn mowing service set it up to showcase his brand new off-topic green #140. The weight classes were for tractors only, not tractors plus drivers. He pulled against dozens of GD Cub Cadets with young kids driving, most with mower decks still attached with grass on them from mowing that morning! Since this guy weighed 200+ he easily out-pulled everyone.

The big farm tractor pull was always in front of the grandstands at the fairgrounds on the horse racing track. GOOD old Midwestern packed clay. You were hard pressed to stick a sharp screwdriver more than an INCH into the clay. They normally had to pull a field cultivator over the track to loosen it up so the tractors could get any bite.

ANYHOW, is there a maximum tractor WIDTH? I always thought a wider tractor would be easier to balance weight side-to-side. Also slow down the reaction to changes in weight side-to-side and the differences in traction between the rear tires effecting the tractor.

All the big tractors that pull on the NTPA circuit are so narrow, just enough room between the drive tires for a narrow roll cage just big enough for the driver to sit in. If a tractor gets to bouncing it sometimes gets real UGLY real quick. Especially if it's bouncing side-to-side.
Dennis, The reason I run my wheels in tight on my 60 over is once and if the tractor takes a turn right or left it is much easiler to correct it. Good weighting and even tire pressure will be the most help in keeping the tractor straight.
If the front end is in the air to much will more than likely get to going right or left. I have always found it best to keep the front end down but not too much and it will almost always go straight. It can be a trickey balance of front end weight. Inconsistant tracks and soil can affect this dramatically, which is not uncommon in a brush pull in the afternoon heat.
Nic Bex, funny I just said to the wife that I should load up and go down and pull with the Mo boys some time, not any farther to travel than goin plowin!!As far as lug tires being 'after market' then is that an indication that a turf tire is all you can run in the stock class. we had an older gentleman here sit down and sharpen an angled turf tire with the high angle in the direction of travel,every body thought "that wont work" untill He started out pulling everybody, then it was " uh you cant do that" well to me that is the fun part about thus little hobby is just coming up with something like that off the wall that proves the next guy that if you sit down and think bout things you can come up with all kinds off stuff,but if you start outdoing the next guy than the whining begins

Brian P, I have two tractors with the tires set in close, does it gain anything, I don't know, does it look cool OH YES!!!!!