Archive through February 02, 2012

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Norm Bartee

I think the only time a hydro gets fluid is when the drive shaft is turning and rotating the charge pump. I think towing the tractor will turn the out put shaft on the hydro and with no fluid pumped through the pump you damage the ends of the pistons and plates they ride on. I will post a picture later today.Once the swash plates and pistons are damage from the heat created from towing the hydro trans is toast, all the pistons and plates would need to be replaced. That is what happens towing a hydro for to long and to fast. My .02

 

[mgonitzke]

Don/Norm-

A few years ago I bought a parts tractor that had been towed. It wouldn't roll at all, as if something was locked up in the transmission. After pulling the hydro pump apart I found that the motor cylinder block assembly was a mess of shrapnel. At that time, my dad was still working, and he worked for Sundstrand, so he took a picture of the damage into work and showed one of the engineers that works on aircraft engine constant-speed drives, which are what the hydro units in our cubs are based on. (This is probably why the hydro unit is so good...it's based on technology that proved to be very reliable in aircraft) Anyway, he said that an overspeed condition would cause that kind of damage, meaning that the motor cylinder block was turning faster than the pump cylinder block. The only time this is really physically possible is when the engine is off and the tractor is being pushed or towed. What I'm speculating happens at this point is that because the motor cylinder block is turning faster, there is a partial vacuum in the pistons instead of positive pressure as there would be under normal operation, causing them to get sucked into the cylinder block, separating the slippers from the swash plate. Carnage then ensues the next time the tractor is run since the slippers aren't touching the swash plate. The relief valves would prevent this, but may be overcome if it is towed too fast. Nothing to do with heat. The trans I had did not have any heat damage inside; everything was mangled because the motor block assembly came apart. Perhaps Marlin will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Bill/Denny-

Also, one of the front hanger holes is drilled offset on the "C" decks because the the different carriage used by the 82 series.

 

[mhomrighausen]

Art A. Cool information. I'll have to get you the info on the Keepsake 1650, Fancy's 1650 and a 1650 that is coming here for parts to add to your list.

Neil M. I haven't been keeping up on your posts however did you replace the points plunger? If so then disregard this question.

Norm B. In answer to what exactly does happen internally to the pump and motor that will cause eternal ruination and render the whole darned system totally useless for the party that was foolish enough to tow a non running hydrostatic garden tractor either too far or too fast.... Okay... think of turning something backwards for a prolonged period of time when it isn't meant to do so in the first place. You begin to build up back pressure in areas where it isn't healthy to do so... or as I was told many years ago when I, myself was a much younger grasshopper... "The pump begins to rotate backwards and things begin to unwind such as springs (inside check valves and implement relief springs and pressure builds up and things begin to break." At least that is what a Massey Ferguson dealer told me when they had a farmer literally try and pull start an 1130 Massey tractor thirteen miles one winter morning when it wouldn't start. Not only did it ruin the clutch the towing litrally exploded the hydrualic pump the same way it ruins the garden tractor hydro system. You're trying to force oil in a way that it wsn't meant to travel. (I hope this helps.)

 

[dfrisk]

MARLIN - Guy My dad used to haul livestock for tried to pull start a '64 IH Emeryville tandem axle semi-tractor because he "thought" He was going to get a call to haul a load of cattle to Chicago. It was Below Zero that day. They pulled the tractor about 3-4 miles and didn't get a pop out of it, pulled it the 3--4 miles home and still nothing. Couple days later when it warmed up the guy tried to start the engine, a Cummins 220 HP in-line 6. It still didn't want to start.

It got towed to the local IH big truck dealer, Riverside Int'l in Davenport, IA. The bill to rebuild the engine, almost EVERY moving part was replaced due to the oil pump shaft twisting off was about what the tractor was worth.

I've towed my 982 a time or two when that @%&# Onan died across the yard and wouldn't start. Wish I had another Hydro just to tow IT with. Nothing I own idles down slow enough to creep it along slow enough. I pull it a ways, let it sit, then tow a little farther. The Hydro still works so I must not have hurt anything. That was about 8 yrs ago.

 

[lrehm]

Picked up a new to me 149 yesterday, it is pretty beat up but I'm hoping to git'r running come spring. At sometime the hydro lift was removed but I hope to find a replacement. Worst case I guess I can part it out and at least break even. But, I've got plenty to work on now with the 147 I picked up in October and this one...guess it is time to learn all about hyrdos!

 

[hydroharry]

Bill J - my "TC-157 Cub Cadet Tractor Illustrated Parts Catlog" (paper copy dated 1992) lists the original ISO-mounts as Part No. IH-61509-C2. The name is actually "Mount Assy, Engine" and it shows Qty 4 required. Although I can understand you wanting to support your local Cub Cadet dealer in the case of these ISO-mounts I still highly recommend you contact one of the sponsors on this Forum. Based on all the discussions I don't believe you will be happy with the performance of the "new replacement" ISO-mounts, which are different from the original version. The discussions talk about them being to stiff and allowing alot of vibration to be tranmitted thru the frame. Part of the idea of converting your ISO-bars to an engine cradle is to improve the performance of the original ISO-mounts. It seems CCC's current mounts are much stiffer since the original ISO-bars and not a cradle. I feel certain if you speak with one of the sponsors (like CC Specialties or Madson's Service) you can locate some original ISO-mounts that are in really good condition (probably from the right side ISO-bar) and in the quantity you need to do the complete replacement.

Also, although you may not be located in a really cold climate area it's possible your 1650 could have a "hydrostatic disconnect attachment" which is really a clutch added to a hydro tractor. This feature allows a clutch release (effectively a neutral position) of the engine from the hydro drive line. The idea was to allow an easier cold start. My son has this on his 1650 and I wanted to mention this since it makes alignment more difficult when you re-install the engine.

William (under edit) - are you certain that is really a 149? I see the narrow front tires although some people change them to provide easier steering). It certainly looks like it has been sitting outside for awhile. Good luck with it.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[nmercer]

Well back on line again, it is dang cold here this morning.
Harry, That is correct I followed the static timing procedure and had no luck still will not start and stay running. It is getting fuel as I pulled the plug after several attempts to start it failed and the plug was wet (not fouled) just wet so I know that it is getting fuel.
Jeremiah, I have had the carb apart and have not been able to find anything really wrong with it other than some crud in the float bowl. took it completely apart and put a rebuild kit in it complete with new bushings and figured that would do the trick but did not solve the problem. Bought new carb still same thing.
Marlin, Points plunger turned out to be in good shape and the camshaft that I origally thought was my problem,(I thought the lobe that runs the points was worn out) is OK. Purchased a dial indicater and magnetic base mount and checked it and dicovered that it had more than enough lift to operate the points.. So I am back to square one. Other things I have tried are a new coil, did not make a difference. several different points settings, adjusted same to open early and late and stil a no go. Is it possible for the advance mechanism on the cam to get stuck? Afraid to go out and work on it right now I am to mad at it might do something that it will regret. LOL

 

[mgonitzke]

Bill/Harry-

There's nothing wrong with the new mounts; they just need to be tightened such that one thread is showing above the lock nut and they'll be fine. The part number can be found in the parts lookup link near the top of the page.

 

[dfrisk]

NEIL - No ignition advance in the Kohler K-series engines. The only mechanism on the cam is the Automatic Compression Release used to pop the exh valve open .050" earlier in the engine roatation. There's a little tab that normally is recessed into the exh valve cam lobe and centrifucal force retracts the tab once engine RPM is high enough.

Just a wild guess, but you might want to remove the cam gear cover, the diecast cover with four 1/4" capscrews right next to the points cover, and make sure the tab is retracting properly. It might bleed off enough compression the engine won't run properly. I've had them stick but always in the retracted position so the engine is more difficult to turn over with the starter.

 

[hydroharry]

Matt - to do what you're saying doesn't Bill need to use the original bolts? Since the PO messed everything up who knows what nuts/bolts/mounts are in this unit. I'm not against going new, and tightening the nut so one thread is exposed, but I think Bill needs to be certain he has the original or correct hardware to have one thread exposed. My parts book does call the bolts out as 3/8-16 x 2-1/4. And for certain he needs the lock nuts for these bolts. The original ones are a sort of "domed" top (don't know exact term for them). I believe this is the style you mean should be installed and tightened so only 1 thread showing. They are shown in the last picture at the bottom of Charlies' FAQ No. 23.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die