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Archive through February 02, 2012

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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hydroharry

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Harry Bursell
Paul - tks for the link to the web site details. The information is interesting and puzzling. It appears just over 37,000 Cub Cadets were produced from Nov 1, 1972 to Oct. 31, 1973 (no Model 169's), and then about 40,000 were produced Nov. 1, 1973 to Oct. 31, 1974 of which 4005 were Model 169. It would seem that over 3,000 units were being built each month so if the only thing produced from July 1974 to Oct 1974 was 169's then something else was going on in this era. You can tell from the charts that production of the Quiet Lines started sometime between Nov 1973 and Oct 1974. I can't imagine the production changes took months. My 169 seems to have been produced in Sept 1974 and one of my sons was Oct. 1974. Now I'm wondering if anyone has units produced from an earlier month.
And the bigger question - what was going on with Cub Cadet production at that time.

Thanks again for all the details,
Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die
 
Harry,

Several possibilities. QL production switch-over is possible. Low consumer demand in fall, coupled with line switch. Production switched to another product with more demand during lull in Cadet demand. Large scale line change (new paint line, updated assembly line installation, etc.). Kohler strike/shortage during switch to AQS engines.....

Without the rest of the puzzle we'll likely never know........
 
Paul and Kraig, "Good stuff" I am on the trail of an Original serial number 513 have not seen it just going on what the owner says. He purchased the tractor new in 1961 with a snowblower, pushblade, mowing deck, and #1 cart. Wishful thinking but I hope it to be true. Would be a great tractor to have.
 
Harry,
Jim C and I, and our wives, spent Thursday, Friday, and part of Saturday with Harold and his wife, at Red Power Round UP 2004, in Mt. Pleasant, IA when he was talking about the 169 production. He had a time line chart for 1974 for the series that someone else had developed that he thought contained some errors and that is where the conversation about the production of the 169 came up. I believe his time line showed production of the 169 beginning earlier in the year, but he seemed to remember it being later in the model year such as Jul/Aug, but after production had ended on the other models. Since he was recalling something that took place 30 years earlier, he could also have been off by a month or so. I never had a reason to doubt what he said, and because I really did not have much interest in the 169's I never tried to compare the S/N's to the Louisville production records for that time frame. Harold and his wife left RPRU about noon on Saturday to go back to their home in the Chicago area, so he could fly to Delaware on Sunday to speak at a seminar that was to start Monday morning. Sadly, he passed away in his hotel room sometime that Sunday night or early Monday morning.
 
Bill J - some additional info before you go and thro the balance gears away. Not everyone is a dis-believer in them. I re-installed them in my 13fin K341, but that was before Dave Kirk had developed and engineered his designed replacements. If I were rebuilding mine today I'd definitely go with the Dave Kirk versions which truly provide balance and are held in place with screws. Also, for what it's worth, the 14hp engines, and I believe at least some of the 12hp engines, also had balance gears. I don't think everyone tears into these and throws the balance gears away, although some may leave them out when rebuilding.

Paul B - I sure miss speaking with Jim C. It's probably been a couple years now. He had mentioned the meeting you referred to in 2004 but not much about the 169's. I did just a little snooping and found the serial number for Bryan McMeens 169 is listed as 512776 with production in May 1974, which I also just confirmed on your chart. Please don't get me wrong but I'm not doubting for one minute the information provided by Harold. I suspect there was something going on in 1974 era. Steve B mentions alot of ideas that are real possibilities. I remember hearing the 169's were produced with manual lifts do to a shortage of hydraulic lifts, but they were produced with the ported hydro pump and IH made a hydro lift retrofit kit available to add it, as you probably know. I wonder if, while lines were being changed over that the 169 was the only unit to continue production - almost a special production line to keep things available. It was a special unit. There is one marketing thing that IH did which has always bothered me. The early Quiet Line literature mentions the Cub Cadet 1650 as the most powerful Cub Cadet produced - almost as if they forgot about the 169. All this adds to the mystique which I think surrounds the 169. 1974 was in the real era of more horsepower is better. It was also the era of the Arab oil embargo and the gas line crisis. I understand that IH competitors had 16hp tractors a few years before them, and to me the 169 was very likely a "quick fit" to fill a competitive void. I don't know how long it may have been in the works. Seems like it's a fairly straight forward fit just to add the bigger engine to an existing tractor line production, but it did require a different muffler, it had the bigger air cleaner, and all this probably required changes in the production line, or maybe even a special production line as I suggested before. I'm fairly certain it would also require testing and standards verifications which add to the timeline - and with the Quiet Line series in the works I suppose the 169 was one of those on again off again ideas. It had to have been a late go ahead to production, and to be worthwhile I feel certain they had to produce a certain number of units to insure it was worthwhile to maintain support for the unit. Obviously this is all alot of guessing on my part. I certainly wish I had a view back in time to that era. For that matter I'd also want a view back to see my 1974 Pontiac Trans Am in production. I had tried to order a 1973 but production was stopped due to a strike, and when the strike was over hundreds of 1973 Firebirds were destroyed since they didn't meet the Federal Gov't bumper standards. The 1974's came with the front rubber bumpers. I mention all this just to point out there was alot of factory termoil in the early to mid 70's. But it was also one of the best periods for USA produced items. A real peak for iron and steel and horsepower - not just cars but tractors as well.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (ever)
They just find another resting place
 
Harry Bursell

Those rubber bumpers did come on the Firebirds in 1974 and 1975 only. I bought a new 1975 for $6123.00 in may . looked at a Cub that year and thought they were big money and never bought one. I now wish I would have pulled back then.
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Harry-

I'd just like to say over the last couple of years I've taken several sets of balance gears from 12 horse Kohlers. Only one set was "tight"; the rest had needles missing and I found several needles in the oil pan. Nowadays, if the dip stick is down beside the points cover and the engine has to be pulled the pan comes off and the gears get tossed (not really, I started a collection). I agree Kirks remedy is a good one from what I hear. The possibility of a ruined engine just outweighs the added vibrations IMHO.
 
MATT G. - Thanks for answering my question on the 984/986.
 
DON T. - I ordered out my '77 Firebird in late Nov. '76. It got stranded in a snow storm somewhere between Warren, Ohio(assembly plt) and IL. for several days, think it was the first weekend in Febuary '77 before I took delivery.

It stickered right at $6000 too. Only time I EVER ordered an automatic transmission. I've had several but bought those other cars off the lot.

I had a BIG old post typed out explaining how IH designed their plants to build their machines but it was WAY over the size limit for posting. Sorry guys!

My best guess on why the 169's got built mostly in a BATCH, IH marketing guessed wrong on the popularity of the 169's and IH didn't order enough engines to meet sales demand and they had to wait on more engines.
 
Denny, I hope you didn't delete that text. Sounds like the kind of writing that should go in the Denny's IH Ramblings... thread. If you did delete it hopefully you can write it up again and then break it up into several posts.
 
I remember , when working at IH dealer ('70-'73), that Cub Cadet production took second fiddle to Ag equipment produced at the same plant. So said my boss and my fussy memory. Denny any comment...fact or fiction of my memory?...
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Harry and Wayne,

Thanks for the nice words on crankshaft balancing. The Counterweight Plate that I offer gets the engine up to approximately a 50% reciprocating balance factor which is what the balance gears contributed. This is a good compromise for a single-cylinder engine in that vertical and horizontal shaking forces are very close to the same magnitude. And this is accomplished without all the unreliability issues that the balance gears pose.

I used to think that rebuilding and replacing bearings and shafts in the balance gears would allow them to be reliable, but I've seen too many engines destroyed by failing balance gears that I don't recommend leaving them in.
 
Well
worthless.gif
so I`am ready to button this up. Now I know it is done correctly. And there is no balance gears in this 12 K

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PAUL - IH was one of the FIRST companies to put in a main frame computer for production control, they called the system I used in Material Scheduling "POFU", for Purchase Order Follow-Up.

Every plant and outside supplier had a code number. FARMALL was #1 company wide, E.Moline was #3, not sure who #2 was, LVL seemed like it was 6 or 7, Memphis Foundry was around #9, I forget where Melrose Pk, Indy, Ft Wayne, Springfield, and the other plants were, but most outside suppliers were 5-digit numbers.

At FARMALL We ALWAYS got what we needed. The winter of '78/'79 was really bad. Lots of BIG snow storms. We NEVER ran out of parts. Maybe several hundred workers couldn't make it to work but we had parts! The company was so ecstatic with our Dept's performace they took all of Us in Mat'l Scheduling Plus our spouses out to supper at the Plantation, the best restaurant in the whole Quad-Cities, special banquet room, drinks, food, all on the company. At our table for 6, three people had Lobster, two prime ribs, and I love shrimp, so I had that. All just to show how much they appreciated the fine job we did.

So because of the profit potential to IH company wide, making parts at ALL of IH's plants and shippng them to FARMALL, plus the profit we could make, We could have bailed IH out of debt just by ourselves in 1981 if we could have run to capacity. We might have even made enough money to cover the new losses from Construction & Truck!

FARMALL had so much clout, that our production person @ Steiger Tractor who had been a production control supervisor I knew well from my earlier days at Farmall, would call Me to get special tires like 30.5X32's that were on limited availability due to demand. I'd call one of my tire suppliers and get them shipped immediately and I could tell exactly when they were delivered. The Purchasing Mgr @ Steiger would call me and kiddingly chew me out about getting something He couldn't.

Girl that had My job at Waterloo sat behind me in Spanish class my Junior & Senior year in HS. I called her up and talked to her a couple times. From what She said and comments from the common suppliers we shared, We had less problems getting parts than they did.

So, to put your situation into perspective, if LVL had the choice of building a Cub Cadet, or building a 2+2 Transfer Case for FARMALL, building & shipping a transfer case to complete a $80,000 2+2 took priority over a $1800 Cub Cadet. Half the cost of a Cub Cadet was outside Dollars to suppliers, the engine, Hydro, tires,wheels, etc. The 2+2 used an IH engine, LOTS of castings, front frame weldment from IH Canton, Sheet metal hoods from IH Shadyside, Ohio, cab from E.Moline, etc.

Hardest place to get parts from was E.Moline, the production superintendent there seemed to think making $100,000 combines was his first priority, then making repair parts for combines his second priority, then making parts for all the other IH plants like Farmall, LVL, Canton, Melrose, Memphis, etc was his third priority and even though we were their biggest "customer", about $6-7 Million/month shipments, We waited in line but NOT patiently. That superintendent's SON was the scheduler for the EM plant, he replaced Me in that position I'd had for 5-6 months. If You called his Boss when he hung up the phone on you, He got the idea that you had a critical parts shortage and got you the parts you needed.

So anyhow, PAUL, I'd say your memory is 100% CORRECT. AG got priority.
 
So I am going to take a second look-see at the 1650 and will likely take it home with me - thanks for all the advice!

Any tricks to get the machine to roll, engine off? Can you disengage the hydro or is there another way?

Thanks again,
Bill
 
KRAIG - When I toggled back ALL my typing was gone after I got the warning message. The error message was that a 5.0 kilobite limit was set for posts and my message was 5.9.

That post really did belong in the coffee shop, not here.

DON T. I hope you smeared some oil on all those moving parts like the crank throw & rod bearing, camshaft bore, cylinder wall, piston & rings, cam followers, etc. I use engine assembly lube or white lithium assembly grease. But your engine looks clean! Should be a good runner.

DAVE K. - Thank-you for posting that info about your balancing weights. I've been extremely happy with the balancing job you did on my K321 about 5-6 yrs ago.

I found out last night that SON is going to need a lawn mower this spring. So that means My 70 now becomes HIS 70 which means the old K241 out of my #72 will be getting rebuilt soon for him. When I run the engine up to Fond du lac in a month or two I'd like to pick up some parts. I'll e-mail you when I have things finalized.
 
Dennis Frisk

I think I put lost of oil in it. I used lots of oil on the rings and sprayed lots around all moving parts . I think I will run a synthetic oil in that engine. I`am installing the head gasket today and will torque it when the K is sitting in the Cub. I think that will make it easier than chasing it around my bench . As soon as my parts get here from Charlie I plan to install the engine and have it running before I finish the tractor. Painting the fenders and other parts can wait till I have it running and charging.
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Bill,

Depending on the era of the 1650... look at the tunnel cover, below the seat. On the right side of the cover (The same side that has the lift controls on the dash). You may see a lever, or a yellow sticker. If there is a lever, lift it "up" toward the steering wheel and it will allow the tractor to roll. If there is no lever and a yellow sticker saying DO NOT TOW, it has the auto release valves.... make sure the brake is off and it will roll.....
 
DON T. - I'm running 5W-40 Rotella T6 full synthetic oil in my K321 I rebuilt.

Per the Kohler manual you should break them in on 30W non-detergent oil, but I broke the K241 I rebuilt in with 10W-40 and it ran 1400 hours. I normally run a new engine about an hour, then change the oil w/30W non-detergent, run it 4-5 more hours, then run the oil I plan to use in it for 20-30 more hours. With full synthetic I'll run up 40-50 hours between changes. I used 15W-40 Rotella in the K321 for the first 30-40 hours before I switched to full syn. It didn't seem like the rings were breaking in very fast.

Don't idle the engine any more than you have to, and don't run it at a steady load or RPM for a long period of time. Steve B found out that Plow Day's are great for breaking in fresh engines. Plow a couple rounds then stop & BS for a while. Then plow some more. You need heating cycles and cooling cycles, and after 3-4 hours they need LOTS of load to force the rings into the cyl walls to break the rings in. OEM Kohler rings are chrome plated, that's a HARD surface to wear.
 
Paul B - I'm trying to study those production figures. The 1st columns seem to be "Marketing Orders" if I read it correctly, and the next group of columns seems to be production shipment and one column for inventory. It may be that 4005 of the 169's were not actually produced. That number shows under the Marketing Orders but the shipments and inventory add up to less than 4000. I've got to do something about magnifying and reading it, or maybe even printing to decifer what happened. Thanks again for the link.

Dave K - YIKES!!!!!

Dennis F - YIKES!!!!

I put my balance gears back in my K341A about 12 years ago. It actually runs very nice, although it probably doesn't have more than about 10 hours total run time. And it only ever had Valvoline SAE30, which I've probably changed 5 times. I did use all original Kohler replacement parts (rod, piston and rings). I would really hate to loose this engine. It doesn't smoke or seem to use any oil at least in the few hours it's been run. I've only had it to a few tractor shows and run it up and down the street, and then not at full throttle. I've got a blade and deck for it but never installed them. It's a keeper and just rests most of the time - but starts "almost" before you turn the key after I put the battery in and turn the gas on. Dang it - what do I do?

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (they just rest in my garage)
 

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