Everyone, I need some troubleshooting advise - 1450 starter "died"

[bkschoonover]

I drove the tractor into the garage and was checking the hytran fluid level. I went to put it away and the starter wouldn't turn "like it died."
Listed below are what I've tried and what I discovered.
1) The starter solenoid "clicks" when the key is turned
2) The starter solenoid does NOT click when the PTO is ON - "As is should"
3) Good voltage on the battery and I even tried to jump start it with my truck
4) I tried to bypass the electrical system by connecting the hot jumper from the battery to the starter's power post
5) Voltage at the starter measures about 4volts when you turn the key and the solenoid engages.
6) If I remove the red wire from the starter and turn the key, I have 12 volts at the end of the wire.
I haven't removed the starter to do any checks on the armature. Does it appear that the starter has failed or am I missing anything?

 

[gary noblit]

Bk, you didn't mention if sol.was on starter or separate.If you jumped pos. direct to starter input post and it didn't turn..2 possibles(assuming 12v in jumper) starter does not work for internal reasons or it is not grounded good...I"m not assuming this is s/g system,it is a separate starter...Positive test: remove starter clamp pos. on input post,touch case with ground jumper.If it doesn't turn it is internal issue.Just pulled one from an m18 that was so dry inside it would not extend but would turn.It should spark when ground is touched on it..No sparking means no pos internal connection...sparks but doesn't run means it needs repaired or replaced

 

[bkschoonover]

Bk, you didn't mention if sol.was on starter or separate.If you jumped pos. direct to starter input post and it didn't turn..2 possibles(assuming 12v in jumper) starter does not work for internal reasons or it is not grounded good...I"m not assuming this is s/g system,it is a separate starter...Positive test: remove starter clamp pos. on input post,touch case with ground jumper.If it doesn't turn it is internal issue.Just pulled one from an m18 that was so dry inside it would not extend but would turn.It should spark when ground is touched on it..No sparking means no pos internal connection...sparks but doesn't run means it needs repaired or replaced

Thank you, I’ll take it off in the next few days and investigate further.

 

[mgonitzke]

If the solenoid is clicking, it sounds like the wiring to it is fine. 4V at the starter with the solenoid engaged = bad solenoid or cable from starter to solenoid, or bad connections at one of those points. Since it recently worked fine, it is probably the solenoid. If you are able to do so safely, short the two big terminals on the solenoid together...if it turns over normally, the solenoid is bad.

 

[bkschoonover]

Bk, you didn't mention if sol.was on starter or separate.If you jumped pos. direct to starter input post and it didn't turn..2 possibles(assuming 12v in jumper) starter does not work for internal reasons or it is not grounded good...I"m not assuming this is s/g system,it is a separate starter...Positive test: remove starter clamp pos. on input post,touch case with ground jumper.If it doesn't turn it is internal issue.Just pulled one from an m18 that was so dry inside it would not extend but would turn.It should spark when ground is touched on it..No sparking means no pos internal connection...sparks but doesn't run means it needs repaired or replaced

Gary, the starter solenoid is located under the dash. I believe that is what I hear clicking when I turn the key to start.

 

[bkschoonover]

If the solenoid is clicking, it sounds like the wiring to it is fine. 4V at the starter with the solenoid engaged = bad solenoid or cable from starter to solenoid, or bad connections at one of those points. Since it recently worked fine, it is probably the solenoid. If you are able to do so safely, short the two big terminals on the solenoid together...if it turns over normally, the solenoid is bad.

I believe the solenoid is located under the dash. That's what I hear clicking when I turn the key to "start." Is the best way to get access to it is by removing the gas tank?

 

[gary noblit]

Bk, Matt is right also,it may well be connections or cable..What I explained is a starter test only..You're dealing with 50 yr old wiring that may have never been unhooked so has corroded somewhere.

 

[gary noblit]

BK, on my 1650 the tank would have to be removed.Not a big deal but I've never worked on a 1450.Just a reminder a sol. can "click) and not make a good connection for output.This is a pic of old sol cut apart to show they do get nasty inside ,over the yrs .

 

[dschwandt]

Got a test lamp?
Use it on the solenoid terminals and the starter terminal.
That should get you zeroed in on the issue.

 

[dsarow]

Like Matt said,try shorting around those two terminals or rapping on the solenoid with a hard handle screw driver might also give you results

 

[bkschoonover]

I want to thank everyone for the advice. It helps to have a wealth of knowledge to pull from when you have an issue here and there. The earliest I can do anything is Wednesday. I’m anxious to get into it and see what’s going on.

 

[bkschoonover]

I’m happy to report that I have isolated the problem. It’s the 12volt wire going from the solenoid to the starter. Thanks everyone for the valuable input!

 

[gary noblit]

BK, thanks for reporting back.It's always good to know what an issue was AND it's good to hear everyones efforts are appreciated!!

 

[bkschoonover]

One last update- it was actually corroded ends on the starter wire at the solenoid. I cleaned the ends on the wires, ground connection between the block/starter and both battery terminals. Before I put it all together, I coated the ends with no -ox electrical contact grease and it started fine.

 

[rfunk]

One last update- it was actually corroded ends on the starter wire at the solenoid. I cleaned the ends on the wires, ground connection between the block/starter and both battery terminals. Before I put it all together, I coated the ends with no -ox electrical contact grease and it started fine.

As our gurus have mentioned in the past, having someone hold a voltmeter across something like this, then cranking it, will show bad connections. 0 volts across the wire without cranking, any significant voltage when cranking, says that you have a bad connection. I read somewhere, can't remember exactly, a case where an engineer/mechanic had this happen, both ends were good, insulation looked good all along the cable, he ended up scalping the insulation off the whole length of the cable, and found that there was a factory splice in the copper where two rolls were joined in production, before the insulation was put on. Corrosion got in along the cable. As he said, a once-in-several-lifetimes occurrence.

 

[gary noblit]

Rey, not a joke I've had 2 batt chargers that had breaks in the leads.Found them by cutting off a ft at a time until I had good feed..gets a bit frustrating sometimes..(won't buy that model again)