Archive through September 29, 2009

[aschumacher]

Motor oil ??? right where my butt is...low ash.

 

[bjrainey]

Kendall,
I would like to hear from Charlie also. Does anybody know where he is at?
I hope everything is OK in his world.

 

[nhasson]

To add another of my two cents, the shop doing my machine work on my K321 said he replaces the balance gear shafts and bearings and has never had a problem. And he has been working at the same small engine/ tractor dealer /chain saw /whatever else/ shop since before I was born. I know a bunch of people that have had work done by him and never a problem. This guy is honestly real good and reasonably priced. That's hard to find nowadays. I'm leaving them in there. Nick

 

[lrehm]

On the balance gear issue....I put out some "feelers" today to see if I can get a hold of one the Engine Division's engineers. Unfortunately my father passed away 2 years ago, his Cub was my first. He worked in the Engine Division for 36 years as a draftsman, engineer and project manager. Heck, I even spent 2 summers honing the cylinder bores of k-series blocks. He retired 15 years ago so I don't remember any of the guys he worked with, but I do know several others who still work at "The Big K" I will update if I get any leads.

 

[kide]

L W:
That would be great!! Otherwise we're gonna have to put Snopes.com on the trail of this one... !!

 

[junderwood]

Richard,
Sure factory installs have gone bad. My bet is that when they go the engine is pretty much wore out. Just like you said yours was. Everything wears and if the gears go before the rod or other part I bet the engine was near a rebuild. My point is simple. The gears are a pain to get right on a rebuild and most of us don't do it because we are impatient and don't know all of the steps. Someday I may try to rebuild an engine and put the gears in to learn the process. Until then I just let my friend do it for me and I don't have to worry about it.

 

[theaton]

I can't swallow the reason for leaving the B-gears out, because they are "too" hard to reinstall. Don't get me wrong, I have yet to remove or install any. If you take an engine down to the point that "parts" need to be left out to put it together again... then you need a better set of wrenches on the job.
The talk of the B-Gears being worn out with the rest of the engine sounds good. HOW MANY blocks have been ruined from rod failure?

 

[jott]

Tony H, ya what you said. Now today when i got it out to cut the lawn,(the 124); it wasnt charging at all, even after two hurs of mowing. I shut it off and and tried to start it, but it only clicked when i turned the key.

Ryan W, here's your info, ya know the drill...
1) Cub model # 123
2) Tractor serial # 210295
3) Kohler engine model # K301AS
4) engine Spec # 4759B
5) engine serial # 0044546
6) Type of dipstick tubes: short on LH side
7) Type of engine data label: riveted
As you said, It also has balance gears.
Here are some pics:

Someone cut a nice big hole in the steering tower. Thats ok, It needs to be changed anyway

If you think your hydro tranny was dirty when you took it apart, Take a gander at this...

 

[dross]

Steve B, Richard C, I found it, On July 28 Matt Stetar 9:11 pm asked if all 1450's had hydraulic lift, Charlie answered him and said yes, The next post is Art who said they all have hydraulic lift. By the time Art posted at 10:31 I'd got to wondering about my 1250's and Ql's in general. I got it wrong.

 

[rpalmer]

John Underwood,
I bet the engine was near a rebuild

Yes it was! The cylinder needed to go +0.30, the crank needed to go +0.10, the cam shaft was junk, needed a new exhaust valve, governor and the head milled. The machine shop that measured everything also included a price for new balance gears. I told him I did not want them and had thrown them in the garbage before bringing him the block. He looked at me like I was stupid.

 

[T-Mo]

I'm by no means an expert on this, but when I rebuilt my K321 in my Wheel Horse, I removed the balance gears. When I unassembled the engine, the balance gears were very loose and could have exploded before the rod broke. I consulted several people and decided not to put them back in. There is a slight noticeable vibration at low idle that goes away as you throttle up.

Also, one more thing, there's the info from Brian Miller's site: See number 7 below.

How to Remove Only the Crankshaft from a Kohler Engine -

1. Remove the flywheel and anything that's on the PTO end of the crankshaft.
2. Remove the cylinder head.
3. Remove the oil pan.
4. Remove the piston/connecting rod assembly from the engine block.
5. Remove the bearing plate.
6. Finally, being very gentle, bump the PTO end of the crankshaft with a large brass head hammer or a large hammer and wooden block to remove it from the engine block.
7. And if an engine originally came with balance gears, there's no need to reinstall them. They serve very little purpose and they may break, possibly destroying the engine block.

Taken from this link: http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/engine.htm

 

[mgonitzke]

The 1650 I had was a great running engine...no smoke, tons of power, but when I pulled the pan of to change the oil pan gasket when fixing the iso-mounts, the bearings in the balance gears were loose, so out they came. That engine was nowhere near needing a rebuild, but the balance gears were about to go.

 

[dfrisk]

ALLEN Schumacher - I had DAVE balance the K321 in My 72. At any RPM it actually runs smoother than the K241 that it replaced. Only thing I notice is that on hard pulls the engine is torquing the frame like You see pulling tractors do, the grill and hood vibrate side-to-side.

Engine balancing is pretty involved with all the different types of moving mass in the engine. You have rotating, reciprocating, occilating. Then You throw in the effect of the power impulses from the piston.

 

[kide]

Remember - I didn't debate the fact that balance gear (bearings) fail, nor did I say that others should put 'em in or take 'em out - I asked for definitive proof, in the form of a Kohler Service bulletin, or other types of written communication from Kohler, that the balance gear assemblies SHOULD be removed from engines.

I've heard various accounts that "somebody from Kohler" stated this, but in 50 + years of getting my hands greasy and hanging around guys that worked on this stuff for a living, I've seen and heard many questionable words of wisdom from 'em... ( i.e. "put scouring powder down the carb to break them new rings in").

I used to remind folks in the IT shop that I worked in that a "fable" told often enough became the truth......Gears break, yes - Kohler's "remove 'em" - ????? (maybe)..

 

[mgerecke]

What do most of you do in preparation to paint one of these Cubs? I am working on a restoration on my 149 and am trying to decide what next. The frame has very little rusty spots-just some grease and faded paint. Some of the other smaller parts are rusty and the fender pan needs a couple dents taken out of the rear as well as the battery tray is rusty to the point of welding some metal in there.
Do I sandblast most of the parts or just run a dual action sander to scuff it up and grind the rusty spots? I have heard that the base coat is probably a good base if it has lasted all these years!!
So far I have it torn down to the frame. The only things left in it are the hydro stuff and rear end.
PaulF- Thanks for the advise on getting the PTO pulley off. That works well drilling 2 5/16 holes and I actually used a steering wheel puller to remove it!

Now the fun begins!!

 

[rwilke]

Josh O.,
Thanks for sharing your Cub data!

Fellas,
I'm loving this lively discussion regarding balance gears.
I too, would like to see the yet-to-be-found-if-it-even-exists TSB from Kohler telling us to remove them at rebuild time.

If anyone runs across a TSB regarding the reasons WHY Kohler started installing them and then stopped installing them and the associated serial numbers/production dates, I'd love to see that one too!

Ryan Wilke

 

[rwilke]

Josh O.,
You stated your engine data plate read: Engine Serial #: 0044546
I think your Engine Serial # should read: C044546; not 0044546. C044546 would agree with the remaining data.

It is a 12HP engine (with special oil pan for tractor installation and electric start) being built in 1967 and was intended for Tractor Use.
Your 123 tractor was built in August, 1967.

Ryan Wilke

 

[kide]

Ryan:
Uhhhh - they started to put 'em in to lower the engine shakes - they're actually geared counter balancers. I missed the part about "stopped installing them". My later model (1996) K-301 black replacement motor's got 'em ....... has the fact been established that Kohler QUIT using them? I know, per the Kohler manual, that they upgraded the gear/bearing assy. , but has a newer <u>factory original</u> engine been taken apart that didn't have them ??? ( <font size="-2">he ducks</font>)

 

[tteague]

well, the balance gear debate again... I have recently restored a 147. Had a reputable machine shop rebuild the engine. I had it sleeved back to original bore. Also used all new kohler parts Including BRAND NEW cam, crank,(which kohler redesighned by the way)BRAND NEW main bearings,valves and guides. BRAND NEW governer setup,including gear. I also had them put BRAND NEW balance gears(also which kohler redesighned)with new needle bearings. Needless to say everysingle moving part was replaced. Everything except the block itself. Using ALL BRAND NEW kohler parts.Which I took the tme to order and purchase myself. The machine shop did a beautiful job on my engine, perfect. My engine has less than 70 hrs on it and the BRAND NEW BALANCE GEARS are rattling already... I have yet to take it apart and remove those gears myself. this is very true. no bullcrap. take the cockadoody gears out!!!

 

[tteague]

OH, by the way, kraig and charlie told me not to put them back in there...The guy at the shop talked me into it.Cuz he looked at me like I was stupid too when I told him I didnt want balance gears...DOH!