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Archive through July 12, 2013

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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jpierson

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May 28, 2003
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Jeff Pierson
Frank, it sure is
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dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
HARRY - I ran the 129 I had for a couple years before I rebuilt the K301 in it and pulled the Gernade gears. not much difference between with or without them. The Gernade gears are supposed to dampen seconadary imbalances if I remember correctly. Dave K. is an expert on that sort of thing. Maybe he can jump in and explain it.

And like I've said, m K321 with Dave's balance plates runs smoother than the K241 it replaced. No tingling vibration in the foot rests, etc. Your K341 would vibrate a little more than a K321 I suspect, but the DK plate would smooth it right down, plus you won;t have to worry about an Inspection window opening up in your K341.

Ohh, and while there are oscilations in the drive force into the driveshaft of a hydro, the biggest backwards surge is when you pull back on the S/R control lever and use the hydro as a brake.
 

hydroharry

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Harry Bursell
Martin H - although the 10hp is a nice smooth running engine, more hp is better. You "gotta feel the power".

Dennis - It's pretty amazing to me that your K321 with DK's balance plate would be smoother than your K241 which never had balance gears, but I'll keep that in mind as I make my decision.

Frank - as always, thanks for performing the actual experiment. I think there may be a minor fault using an aluminum pan with a magnet - but I do have a couple questions. Since you mentioned the pics are at WOT, is your heat shield removed? And how did you dispose of the testing materials?

Tom H - I know you've been doing some work to make a special version (possibly a 168). Can you address balance gear removal before and after vibrations? Or if you used an AQS engine can you address vibrations with ISO mounts and then bolting it directly to the frame? I'm honestly trying to get true opinions (with some possible minor pun comments).
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
HARRY - One thing to keep in mind... ALL my CC's have solid mounted engines. YMMV, Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure how a rubber spring between the engine & frame may effect the vibration of a K341. As a quality engineer told me many years ago... "Everything has a unique resonant frequency, get two things attached to each other with different frequencies and you'll magnify vibration at some speeds, and cancel out some vibration at others.

Plus, I've logged thousands of hours on those miserable 2-cyl green farm tractors with the yellow wheels, so my threshold for pain from vibration is MUCH higher than most people. Think they also have something to do with the constant ringing in my ears too. They were none too quite compared to the red tractors I liked to run.

And if you saw the work DK went thru developing his balance plates for the Kohler engines, you'd know why they work so well, much better than the Gernade gears which was Kohlers solution. I bet he put more R&D & testing into his plates than Kohler did to their gears.
 

jchamberlin

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Jeremiah Chamberlin
Pin/Cup Update
Dennis Frisk was prescient: The pin fell out of my 149 drive cup approximately a half-hour after the install. I'm assuming the burrs formed from my driving out the rolled pin slowed its exit slightly, but it was waiting for me on the combination grass-screen and pin-catcher below.

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I didn't have a hose clamp handy, so I grabbed some Ty-Raps in an effort to secure them until I can come up with a bona-fide pin retainer.

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The only thing that gives me pause about a screw-type hose clamp is the fact that the clamp part likely is more than half the weight of the entire assembly, and secured to the drive hub, would constitute off-centered load on a rotating shaft. Although we're not talking about a lot of weight, the rotatation would magnify its effect. Since so many people report trouble-free use of the hose clamp, I'm probably worrying about nothing, but I would still like to explore other options to see what I could come up with.
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
JERMIAH - Yes, a hose clamp does put the driveshaft & coupler slightly out of balance, but unless your backside is a WHOLE lot more sensitive than mine (see paragraph #2 of the post right under yours) You'll NEVER be able to tell the shaft is slightly out-of-balance. Remember, theres a 15-20 pound flywheel and a BIG ball bearing just an inch or two away from that tiny hose clamp to stabilize the slight inbalance the hose clamp makes.

Problem I had with my old 129 was there was enough force on the hose clamp from the pin that the pin would push it's way THROUGH the stainless steel band of the hose clamp, even the solid part where there were no slits for the worm screw to engage.

You may even have to wrap a thin, like .030" thk piece of steel about an inch wide around the coupling and secure it with the hose clamp to keep the dowel pin from working it's way out. And if you over-lap the piece of steel about an inch the doubled thickness away from the screw on the hose clamp so one end of the pin pushes against the screw portion of the clamp, it should be pretty close to being balanced.

That dowel pin is the best reason I know of for making sure your hydro CC has the belly screen or cover in place. Once your hydro comes to a stop, the pin is just laying there ready to be installed again.
 

hydroharry

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Harry Bursell
Dennis - ya, about the only thing I can figure is that my vibration thresshold is alot higher than others. I never really used a pan seat unit. I've always had the cushy seat. I do know the K321 and K341 non-balance gear, non-cradle update, ISO-mount units will shake like _ _ _ _ side to side at idle and lower rpm's when the ISO-mounts have really failed. But that stands to reason to me since they are swinging back and forth on those metal inserts that are supposed to have the rubber covering them. The question then is still - how much vibration will I feel mounting the non-balance gear engine directly to the frame. I know DK did some extensive testing but I really hate to go to removing my crank after the rebuild I did, and I'm thinking I should just remove the balance gears. I guess if I did remove them and the vibrations were not tolerable then I could go to DK's crank balance helper. If I were an experienced internal engine guy it would have been done along time ago, but I need help with this stuff and although I have access to the help I just really like to know I'm doing the right thing, and I will still get 40-50 years of problem free run time. (is that to much to ask?)

Jeremiah - with regard to your dilema - I'm sorta in disagreement with Dennis (and I know he won't care, and probably prefers people to disagree with him so he gets more to write about). I know the hose clamp will work at least for awhile - but this is one of those situation where IH doesn't list the hose clamp in the parts book so I never installed one and can't recommend it. Seems to me you just gotta break down and get another drive shaft, even a used one, or do something to the one you have so that solid pin stops comming out. Heck, seems to me you could put some burrs on the pin, and even some loctite, and have a better chance of keeping it in. I'm honestly surprised the new pin came out since that usually solved the problem for me. I have to assume the hole in the driveshaft is just worn that little bit to allow the pin to slip thru. So I guess before you go getting another drive shaft you could put the pin back in with some loctite on it, then put a burr on each side of the pin. You'll have to be careful puttin the burrs on because you don't want to break that aluminum drive cup bolted to the flywheel, but it certainly has to help keep it from coming out. Heck, I'd put the burr on one side before you drive it back it so you only have to put one more burr on it after you've got it installed. (Ok Dennis, your turn again - I know it's a hardened steel pin so I hope Jeremiah doesn't break the cup. Maybe he should remove the engine to do this. In fact I think he should remove the engine and do this burr work, then reinstall the engine with the pin already in place).
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
HARRY - They make "SPECIAL" dowel pins...(Oh I hate that word "special", always means more expensive!), that have a groove with raised sides for holding the pin in slightly over-size holes. I did a couple searches and Grainger seems to have the widest selection, but that style is not hardened, and they come in boxes/bags of 25. A spirol roll pin would work better, at least they hold up on the back of the driveshaft to hold the rag joint yoke.

Lock-tight may work, but I'd try L-T red first, not sure blue would hold up.

Even if Jeremiah could pound the dowel pin into an oval shape off the tractor so it was snug or tight in one direction he could probably keep it in without any additional means. But a hardened dowel pin is NOT going to deform very well at all. And it could break or shatter, flying shrapnel is not good. And heating it would remove all the hardness.

Trying to find a slightly over-size dowel pin may make more sense, I did see a .260" dia pin in my search, but with Grainger you still have the 25/box quanity to deal with. Maybe a company like Motion Industries or McMaster-Carr would have something you could buy one piece of. There was a good assortment of metric sizes, maybe they'd have something just over 1/4: dia. like aboutr 6.5 mm.

I know a 1-1/2" SS worm gear hose clamp isn't listed in the parts book for a CC, but the fact is it works. After I finally wrapped the thin piece of steel around the coupler I used my old worn half-in-two dowel pin for at least another five years mowing my 2+ acres every week plus many other chores.

When you start adding up ALL the prices for new couplers, drive shafts, and dowel pins, it gets REALLY expensive. And even the engineers at FARMALL were aware there were a few short-comings in the engineering of the Cub Cadets. Too bad the engineers in Hinsdale & LVL hadn't made the same discovery.
 

jchamberlin

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Jeremiah Chamberlin
Thanks for the input, guys. I didn't realize the pin was hardened, that makes things more challenging. The hub, by-the-way is cast iron, not aluminum. It seems to me that two basic approaches can be taken:
1. Improve the way the pin is secured on the drive shaft
2. Prevent the pin's escape from the hub

The first thought I had for tactic #1 was to drill and tap the end of the drive shaft for a pointed set screw that could be tightened against the pin. The proposed modification may require a change in the assembly sequence; and, since the pin is hardened, the pin may need to be grooved or flattened with a stone so that the set screw can get a bite on the pin.

The second thought I had for tactic #2 was to fashion a cup that would slide over the hub and prevent the pin's escape: basically an extension of the SST hose clamp idea. After reviewing Dennis's account, however, it seems that the pin does a bit more than "fall out" of the drive shaft; it appears to "work it's way out" with considerable force. The cup-over-hub would therefore need to be of fairly stout construction, and it would need to keep the pin centered on the shaft. Since the pin extends only about the extend of its chamfer --about 1/16" on either side-- the cup would have to fit pretty tightly. Wayne's modified bolt approach is a variation on the them of preventing the pin's escape.

By the time you're done working up a viable alternative, you could have gone ahead and bought a new drive shaft.

Of course, welding up the pin's hole in the drive shaft and re-drilling is also an option, but a bit beyond my skills and tooling. I would think the hole would need to be reamed fairly precisely to achieve the desired "compression fit."

The driveline is pretty important part of the tractor, and it is worth the money getting it right in my honest opinion.
 

wshytle

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Wayne Shytle
I don't think there's anyone that would be able to detect any additional vibration from the use of a hose clamp to enclose the drive shaft pin. All CCs vibrate...it's just part of the tractor in the way it operates. Also, trying to hold the pin in with any sort of Loctite would probably be in vane due to the constant hammering of the pin in the coupler. Just look at any coupler after a few years of operation. The pin will work best when the hole in the drive shaft is the proper size and that's about the whole thing in a nutshell. When both are new you need to freeze the pin and heat the shaft to get the pin in due to the hole sizing. I learned that from Matt G. a few years back.

In the meantime, a hose clamp keeps the tractor mowing and the pin in place. I haven't used any additional steel wrap but it's doesn't sound like a bad idea. It makes sense in this case of jury rigging. I personally haven't needed it since all of my clamps have held up so far. I still say a 1/4-20 bolt with a right angle head and a nyloc nut is a good, temporary fix. The main problem using this method is being able to get the wrench on the darn nut. There's usually a coupler bolt right in the way. I don't think IH had a standard for the bolt holes in a coupler and I don't think I've seen two alike. The bolt can/will eventually become offset from the hammering and break but like I mentioned earlier I've been using one now for quite a while. I also have a couple of tractors out there with hose clamps that are doing just fine. Welding up and resizing or replacing the coupler with a new one helps too in my opinion. It limits the hammering which makes me think it would increase the life of whatever type of pin is used. If you think about it, the pin gets hammered against the coupler with every power stroke of the engine. That can be a bunch just going to check the mailbox much less mowing for two hours.
 

tbdavis

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Terry Davis
Tire question. Anyone know if any tire manufacturers still produce a tire with a tread pattern similar to the old Firestone Town and Country? Thanks
 

dlouw

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Jun 24, 2009
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Dawid J Louw
The spindle on my 102 was worn and abused to the extent that I could not use Pete Stanaitis’ taper pin solution to the steering knuckle issue (Forum May 27, 2013 - " I have had a page up about that taper pin solution since 2002: http://www.spaco.org/loose.htm").

Shipping parts to South Africa has also become outrageously expensive and I had to consider other options. One option was to copy a splined-top-of-spindle idea from another make of LGT but I had no access to metal machining to make the splined end and the associated knuckle. In the end I came up with this solution.
I bought a second hand 14 mm Allen key and a 14 mm socket from a pawn shop for a few dollars. I cut the damaged top end from the spindle and welded a section of the Allen key in its place. I then cut the socket in half and welded these slices to a knuckle made from a folded 3mm flat steel bar. I also cut a slot in the end of the knuckle and fitted a small bolt and nut to clamp the new knuckle to the spindle.

To improve the turning radius, I drilled the hole for the steering rod a few millimetres closer to the spindle. No guarantees, but so far, my solution seems to work well and I do not expect it to wear out as the original roll pin design did.

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dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
TERRY - Last time I shopped for a Firestone Town & Country tire was about 25 yrs ago. I put a pair on the back of our '88 Mustang GT HO 5.0L so the wife could get around on snowy roads. The GY Gatorback's that came on the car were JUNK, handled O-K on dry clean pavement, but get them on damp, dusty, or wet/snowy pavement and you better HOLD ON. Local GY store wanted to sell me some $350 a piece high performance all season tires. I asked the salesman why I'd want to drive 155 MPH on snowy roads and got a stupid stare for an answer. I got P-O'd, went across the road to the Firestone store and had a pair of T&C's mounted in size P205-75R14 on my 4-bolt 14" Ford Fairmpnt wheels for about $150 total and they worked great for several years. Wife could go places in the Mustang that my 4WD F150 would barely go even in 4WD.

BUT, T&C's don't seem to be available anyplace like Tire Rack, so they must all be gone and not making them anymore. You might try calling your local Firestone store, they do or at least did have a tire locator where they can search all other Firestone shops in the area for inventory. SON found the last set of 4 Firestone Firehawk P275-60R17's in the midwest via the dealer in Moline, IL, the tires were in Ottumwa, IA. I doubt you'd find a 6-12, or a 23-8.50X12. You can have your local dealer check those sizes but also have him check P155-80R12's, & P215-70R12's. Also on the 23-8.50's have him check other "Aspect Ratios", like P215-75's, or P215-65's, or P215-60's, all 12" rim diameter. I doubt they ever made those sizes, but the P155-80R12's would have been a good tire for an early Honda Civic or other small car in the late 1970's.

There's also an "HDAP" style tire made by Dunlop & Carlisle that's used on off-topic L&G tractors that's kinda similar to the old T&C's that's made from a softer rubber compound that works good for turf and even snow removal operations without chains according to the people on the O/T forums. You do a search on HDAP tires and they've been well discussed with everybody who's used them being impressed with them. Not sure those are available in a size comparable to a 6-12 but they should have something around a 23-8.50 and I know they have 23-10.50's. Be a great tire for a working tractor.

And speaking of today's Winter tires on L&G tractors, somebody should put a pair of Bridgestone BIZZAKS on a CC and push some snow around. No chains of course. They make such a terrific difference in how a car/truck gets around on snow & ice, and they even make a great HP drag slick or slalom racing tire because the rubber is so soft. SON put a set of four slightly used P195-60R15's off a Saturn on the Mustang one winter. They only lasted about 5000 miles but on dry clean blacktop he could not do a burn-out... which for him was surprising. He had a set on his Lightning p/u for two yrs, even in summer, but he drove more sensably and they still had 60-70% tread after 8000 miles. And in winter, his SWB 2WD pickup could go about anywhere even thru snow as long as he had enough ground clearance.
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
DAWID - Great way to salvage a worn left spindle after you've wallowed out the roll pin hole and done what I did 20 yrs ago and put a 3/8" dia, hardened bolt in place of the roll pin.

I never thought about using a socket and part of an allen wrench.

I've modified both my NF tractors steering arms by drilling a 3/8" hole to move the tie rod 3/8" closer to the center of the spindle. That way I can get full turning to point the lower steering arms hit the stops cast into the frt axle. Saves a LOT of time trimming when mowing.

The later model MTD tractors with the splined & clamped steering arm was an improvement that IH was WAY past due in making IMO.

Great work!
 

pbell

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Paul Bell
Denny,
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

And even the engineers at FARMALL were aware there were a few short-comings in the engineering of the Cub Cadets. Too bad the engineers in Hinsdale & LVL hadn't made the same discovery.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

They did. They replaced the slotted hub and pin with the coupling system on the front of the QL driveshaft, and ended the problem.
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
PAUL - Yes, that was one they fixed, but there were others they never addressed, like the frt axle spindle problem that DAWID posted about. But I guess the WF welded spindle kinda fixed that, but gave other problems, like the spindle the wheel mounts on breaking out of the "U" shaped piece because there wasn't enough surface area on a 3/4" or 1" spindle to adequately weld the spindle to. MTD/CCC finally fixed the problem going back to the bent "J" shaped 1" spindles with splined & clamped steering arms. IH did that on the 982 but didn't carry the idea over to the smaller tractors.

And on the GD's, the very furthest back hole in the driveshaft at the front of the coupler, is the only place a single 1/4" dia roll pin drives the whole tractor thru a rather small 5/8" dia mild steel shaft. There's two pins in the clutch, and actually another single pin on the back of the coupler, but it's driving a hardened high carbon carburized steel pinion shaft. A 7 or 8 HP GD will never wear that back hole out in the driveshaft, but with 10 or more HP, it will last only about 12-15 yrs and wallow that hole out to almost accept a 3/8" pin. I don't think IH ever used a rag joint in a GD CC. But I seem to remember maybe MTD/CCC did. But at least on the Hydro's, MTD/CCC redesigned the drive shaft to use something similar to a Lovejoy coupling to soften the impact of the engine's power stroke. I had to replace the rag joints in my old 129, and the 982 had new rag joints & drive shaft when I bought it. If IH would have started using a larger, say 1" dia driveshaft with 5/16" or 3/8" roll pins there wouldn't have been any problem. The drive cup & pilot bushing could have stayed 5/8".

And for ground engaging higher HP tractors, the rear axle shafts were getting kinda small. I know several people here have twisted off the splined end of the rear axles in the diff carrier in their CC's. MTD/CCC went to a 1-3/16" dia. axle with finer splines while IH kept with the 1" dia axles. That was a 41% increase in surface area & strength. Several people here have swapped in the newer stronger MTD parts into their IH CC's.

And the old TRW/ROSS steering gearboxes were not quite up to the task of turning heavier tractors with wide tires with heavy frt mounted attachments like snow blowers, loaders, etc. But power steering fixed that problem. Something else MTD/CCC did that IH never brought to market.

And I was reading on another forum last night that several people have had frames crack right behind the engine mounting plate on IH 982's and early MTD/CCC SGT's. A little thicker steel in the frames on the bigger tractors would have been a good idea. Longer frames generate more stress in rough terrain. And carrying the thicker frame over into the smaller tractors wouldn't have hurt either.

So yes, the same engineering group that thought the 460/560 would be fine with a 50-60+ HP engine ahead of a rearend designed for 36 HP were still using the same logic when designing CC's. As long as it worked well for 90, 95, even 99+% of the time for 10-15 years it was Good to GO. So that being said, maybe trying to use these old tractors for 33, or 45, or even 48 yrs is asking too much. It'd just be nice if all the rest of the tractor was as rugged & long-lasting as the transmission & rearend was, both GD & hydro.

One thing I know for sure, the CC 1100, 482, 582 Special, etc with the Peerless rearend wasn't the right answer. After running CC's for 50 yrs I'm not about to switch brands.
 

jchamberlin

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Jeremiah Chamberlin
Pin/Cup Update
Well, I located a radiator hose clamp and installed it as a temporary repair to keep the pin in the cup (drive hub) on my 149.

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The pressure was on, my "helper" was anxious for her daily tractor ride with little brother.
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Regarding a more permanent repair, although I'm committed to restoring the pin/cup configuration for the sake of "correctness," I'm not sure I would recommend the original configuration for a working tractor. In other words, I'm siding with Paul in this debate; if you're going to spend money for new parts, unless you're attempting a restoration, I think you're better served with the QL double rag joint solution. For reference, the drive cup cost me about $70 online, the drive shaft will run me about $50 and the "coupler arm" that mounts at the transmission end is even more. So, we're looking at about $200 with the pin and flex disk already installed to renew the entire driveline for a wide frame (not QL). By way of comparison, the (different) drive coupler at the transmission end for the QL series, together with the driveshaft flange for the engine end together run less than $50, the self-aligning ball bushing and chrome ball (if needed) runs about $25 plus the cost of a driveshaft fashioned from the 5/8" dia. round stock of your choice, or I would guesstimate it could be done for about $100 total, or about half the cost of the "correct" pin/cup configuration, your mileage may vary.
 

bjamison

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Binder 1650
Dang! All this talk about how MTD/CCC improved the Cub Cadets makes me think I should shop around for a late model cyclops tractor....

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MTD never made a Scout, much less than a Scout II (rusty fenders not withstanding), so I guess I'll stick with IH for Cub Cadet garden tractors.

Not much going on with the 1650 (though I did soak the carb in Berrymans dip and it came out looking like new) or the 126 potential stuck valve or bad condenser or whatever it is that makes it stop running - after running hard. I've been up to my ears in other stuff and the other color tractors have been carrying the load. Even the 109 is down with a flat tire...
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Is it just me or does Summer seem like it's flying buy super quick and I need to start thinking about hauling wood to the house, striking a match for the wood stove before to long...
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digger

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PSA,

Today or later tonight or even tomorrow, we'll be switching the forum over to the new fancy dancy dedicated server, so you might see a time when you won't be able to post or read. But it won't be long.

We're going to a dedicated server with 2 backup standby servers to kick in if need be stop the glitch we've from time to time in the last year.
 
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