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Archive through March 08, 2014
- Thread starter jgoodine
- Start date
Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
glippert
Well-known member
I have a couple questions about the hydro unit on my IH 782. At a minimum, I'm going to need to replace seals, as I'm leaking a quite a bit of Hy-Tran. I've been reading and re-reading the Sundstrand Service Manual, Bulletin 9646, May 1974. Thanks to Marlin H for making that manual available a couple years ago.
My first question refers to the re-assembly process. It says to wrap the shaft extension with plastic, then coat with hydraulic oil and slide the charge pump assembly back on. Am I misreading this? I can't get it through my thick skull to understand wrapping the shaft in plastic before trying to slide a seal back on - won't the plastic slide, too, and get all bunched up inside the charge pump and pump cartridge?
My second question will help determine how far I need to go into the hydro. I keep the tractor in my garage all winter, which is heated to no less than 50 degrees, so it's never really cold. But when I start it up and go out to throw some snow, it is very sluggish/slow, both the hydraulic lift to raise the QA42-A, and hydrostatic transmission moving the tractor. That's not surprising and isn't really a problem, as the Hy-Tran apparently warms up fairly quickly and works normally pretty soon. The problem is that when it's still cold, if I have the engine at full throttle and move the hydro level forward or back, it "grinds/chatters" like a gear drive without the clutch. Also, at full throttle, the hydraulic lift won't raise the thrower. If I throttle it back to about half-throttle everything is fine, and once the tractor starts moving forward I can hit it to full throttle and it works OK. When it's time to raise the thrower again, or back up, etc., I need to pull it back to half throttle again. As I said, this only last for a few minutes, until everything is warmed up and then all is back to normal.
1. How likely is it that I've caused any damage during the few, brief instances that the "grinding/chattering" happened?
2. Is it possible that a Hy-Tran and filter change will cure it?
3. Has anyone else experienced these symptoms during cold weather?
(I'll bet you wish I only had a "quick question, huh?)
Thanks for any advice.
My first question refers to the re-assembly process. It says to wrap the shaft extension with plastic, then coat with hydraulic oil and slide the charge pump assembly back on. Am I misreading this? I can't get it through my thick skull to understand wrapping the shaft in plastic before trying to slide a seal back on - won't the plastic slide, too, and get all bunched up inside the charge pump and pump cartridge?
My second question will help determine how far I need to go into the hydro. I keep the tractor in my garage all winter, which is heated to no less than 50 degrees, so it's never really cold. But when I start it up and go out to throw some snow, it is very sluggish/slow, both the hydraulic lift to raise the QA42-A, and hydrostatic transmission moving the tractor. That's not surprising and isn't really a problem, as the Hy-Tran apparently warms up fairly quickly and works normally pretty soon. The problem is that when it's still cold, if I have the engine at full throttle and move the hydro level forward or back, it "grinds/chatters" like a gear drive without the clutch. Also, at full throttle, the hydraulic lift won't raise the thrower. If I throttle it back to about half-throttle everything is fine, and once the tractor starts moving forward I can hit it to full throttle and it works OK. When it's time to raise the thrower again, or back up, etc., I need to pull it back to half throttle again. As I said, this only last for a few minutes, until everything is warmed up and then all is back to normal.
1. How likely is it that I've caused any damage during the few, brief instances that the "grinding/chattering" happened?
2. Is it possible that a Hy-Tran and filter change will cure it?
3. Has anyone else experienced these symptoms during cold weather?
(I'll bet you wish I only had a "quick question, huh?)
Thanks for any advice.
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- Home of the Plow Special
Lip-
When I got my 169 I thought the hydro pump was somehow "broken". It acted odd and took a long time to lift the rear tiller with the Hyd lift. When it did finally lift the tiller, it would do so with a loud "hummmmm" sound. I thought the pump was done for sure.
After checking the hydro fluid and realizing it wasn't Hytran, (It was clear in color) someone here recommended changing it out for the 'good stuff'. Sure enough, that's all it took and everything worked great after a fluid and filter change.
Do you know what kind of fluid is in the transmission? If it's not Hytran, I would change it out for sure.
As far as your "wrapping in plastic" question, I don't know what you're referring to. When I finally ended up replacing all of the seals in the 169's hydro about a year ago, there was no 'wrapping in plastic'.
Hope this helps, and as always...
When I got my 169 I thought the hydro pump was somehow "broken". It acted odd and took a long time to lift the rear tiller with the Hyd lift. When it did finally lift the tiller, it would do so with a loud "hummmmm" sound. I thought the pump was done for sure.
After checking the hydro fluid and realizing it wasn't Hytran, (It was clear in color) someone here recommended changing it out for the 'good stuff'. Sure enough, that's all it took and everything worked great after a fluid and filter change.
Do you know what kind of fluid is in the transmission? If it's not Hytran, I would change it out for sure.
As far as your "wrapping in plastic" question, I don't know what you're referring to. When I finally ended up replacing all of the seals in the 169's hydro about a year ago, there was no 'wrapping in plastic'.
Hope this helps, and as always...
Greg,
I just read the Service Manual, (and have never actually done the repair) but here is my take.
According to the picture, there is a keyway cut in the end of the extension shaft. I believe that they want you to cover the keyway and end of the shaft (I have used electrical tape in similar circumstances) and then cover the shaft and plastic with oil to protect the lip of the oil seal as you slide the housing assembly onto the shaft.
My .02
I just read the Service Manual, (and have never actually done the repair) but here is my take.
According to the picture, there is a keyway cut in the end of the extension shaft. I believe that they want you to cover the keyway and end of the shaft (I have used electrical tape in similar circumstances) and then cover the shaft and plastic with oil to protect the lip of the oil seal as you slide the housing assembly onto the shaft.
My .02
Greg them hydro units are amazingly tuff, I bought a 1250 one time, previous owner said it would start to work but would quite after about 2-3 minutes, he even took the cover off, so he could reach down with his hand and run the controller, I took back cover off rear end and the was about 1 teacup of sludgy oil inside. I wiped everything out installed a new hydraulic filter fix gasket in rear cover that was causing oil to leak out. Filled with regular clear 32 weight oil (just cause I had a bucket full) and I did not think it would work, it worked great, I even abused it to see if I could get it to slip of bypass internally, no problems to pull my 5000pds truck up the hill by my house. If I were you I would change oil and filter first, I'd take back of rear end make sure there's no sludge blocking pick up tube, as far as plastic warped shaft I don't understand, maybe so you don't cut the seal in key way ?
Greg Lippert
They want you to tape the shaft so the seal does not get damaged when it is slide over the shaft. any little bur could put a small pick in the seal and cause a leak .
The chatter you get could be from a bad pressure release spring and valve . improper weight fluid could also cause this along with dirt .
If I were you I would pull the two bolts out of the charge pump and check the pump surface for scoring. cold fluid would be harder to pump and cause a chatter that would go away as the fluid tempt would get warm. look for any marks where the star wheel in the pump rides on the pump face. any scoring on the pump surface is bad and would cause a pressure loss with cold fluid also. I`am not 100 percent sure but I think the charge pump from a cast pump is the same on both types of pumps. hope this helps. Later Don T
They want you to tape the shaft so the seal does not get damaged when it is slide over the shaft. any little bur could put a small pick in the seal and cause a leak .
The chatter you get could be from a bad pressure release spring and valve . improper weight fluid could also cause this along with dirt .
If I were you I would pull the two bolts out of the charge pump and check the pump surface for scoring. cold fluid would be harder to pump and cause a chatter that would go away as the fluid tempt would get warm. look for any marks where the star wheel in the pump rides on the pump face. any scoring on the pump surface is bad and would cause a pressure loss with cold fluid also. I`am not 100 percent sure but I think the charge pump from a cast pump is the same on both types of pumps. hope this helps. Later Don T
Greg Lippert
One more thing ; the tractor could have the wrong hydro filter . causing a restricted flow to the charge pump when cold . If your not sure what you have replace the fluid and filter with proper filter and hytran .
One more thing ; the tractor could have the wrong hydro filter . causing a restricted flow to the charge pump when cold . If your not sure what you have replace the fluid and filter with proper filter and hytran .
Want to thank all who helped me get my uncles cub 149 operating again, he would be one happy man!! I changed the hydro filter and oil and the valves popped right up and are working great, also I gapped the new wear button to the specs you guys gave me and the PTO works like a champ!! Thanks again to all of you and this great forum, I am one happy new cub cadet owner!!
Christian S.
Christian, Welcome aboard!
Keep your eyes peeled on the Plow Day announcement section and bring that rig on down to one. If Ya don't have a plow, come on down anyway and you'll soon be on the hunt for one!!!
Also some excellent shows coming up in Cedar Falls IA and Forest City, IA later this summer.
Great looking Cub Ya got there!!
Keep your eyes peeled on the Plow Day announcement section and bring that rig on down to one. If Ya don't have a plow, come on down anyway and you'll soon be on the hunt for one!!!
Also some excellent shows coming up in Cedar Falls IA and Forest City, IA later this summer.
Great looking Cub Ya got there!!
fcurrier
Well-known member
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- Jul 5, 2004
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- Frank A. Currier(Northern Maine)
Speaking of which, and not as nice looking:
Ol' Fernando may get a new home 40 miles south of here. A 100 "Show Queen" may come back.
Spring is springing, juices are starting to flow.
It's not an easy decision. This 149 has been faithful here for about 6 years but there's young boys where it may go and they want to work one, not be afraid of scratching one's paint job.
Ol' Fernando may get a new home 40 miles south of here. A 100 "Show Queen" may come back.
Spring is springing, juices are starting to flow.
It's not an easy decision. This 149 has been faithful here for about 6 years but there's young boys where it may go and they want to work one, not be afraid of scratching one's paint job.
glippert
Well-known member
Art, Ken, Joel & Don - Thanks for the replies. It does have Hy-Tran Ultra and a Fleetgard HF6096 filter. I replaced both shortly after I bought the tractor from my Mom, after Dad died back in 2004. But I've only topped off the fluid since then, and haven't changed the filter, so that'll be a good starting point.
Don, I'll also take your advice and check the surfaces of the charge pump. If I find any scoring, can it be repaired, or would I be better off just replacing those parts?
I won't be able to do anything with it though, until I get the footrest bolts loose to remove the fender pan. Of course, the Phillips head screws are rounded out. I've been hitting them with PB Blaster, but can't get a good grip on the heads with a vise grip, so I'll probably have to haul it out to my local machine shop to weld on a nut and get them loose. Then I'll replace them. Unfortunately, the trailer I use for hauling the Cubs is frozen down outside. I just removed the snow drift from on and around it yesterday. Temps around 43 today, so maybe I can get it free.
I'll let you all know what I find when I'm finally able to get to it. Thanks again to you all, and to Charlie for this amazing wealth of knowledge we call the Forum!
Don, I'll also take your advice and check the surfaces of the charge pump. If I find any scoring, can it be repaired, or would I be better off just replacing those parts?
I won't be able to do anything with it though, until I get the footrest bolts loose to remove the fender pan. Of course, the Phillips head screws are rounded out. I've been hitting them with PB Blaster, but can't get a good grip on the heads with a vise grip, so I'll probably have to haul it out to my local machine shop to weld on a nut and get them loose. Then I'll replace them. Unfortunately, the trailer I use for hauling the Cubs is frozen down outside. I just removed the snow drift from on and around it yesterday. Temps around 43 today, so maybe I can get it free.
I'll let you all know what I find when I'm finally able to get to it. Thanks again to you all, and to Charlie for this amazing wealth of knowledge we call the Forum!
Greg Lippert
You should be able to remove the charge ump with out removing the fenders . The drive shaft will have to be unbolted and the end moved to one side then two bolts in the charge pump .Let me know what you find . later Don T
You should be able to remove the charge ump with out removing the fenders . The drive shaft will have to be unbolted and the end moved to one side then two bolts in the charge pump .Let me know what you find . later Don T
Greg,
If the footrest screws aren't completely stripped, a good tool to try would be the old fashioned impact driver (where you hit the top with a hammer to generate downforce and a little bit of twist). Find the proper bit. I think it's a #4 Phillips. Get the bar under the footrest on solid blocking and see if you can knock them loose.
If the footrest screws aren't completely stripped, a good tool to try would be the old fashioned impact driver (where you hit the top with a hammer to generate downforce and a little bit of twist). Find the proper bit. I think it's a #4 Phillips. Get the bar under the footrest on solid blocking and see if you can knock them loose.
On the 127 I took a 5/16" drill and took the heads off the rusty foot rest bolts.
I'm still having problems starting the 123. As per a sugestion by David Calkins the ACR needs a new spring, even thou the spring is not broken. I can remove the cam cover and move the ACR weight easley with my finger. I have driven it around and it runs and moves good. If the new spring doesn't work I have a nice camshaft I will put in it.
I'm still having problems starting the 123. As per a sugestion by David Calkins the ACR needs a new spring, even thou the spring is not broken. I can remove the cam cover and move the ACR weight easley with my finger. I have driven it around and it runs and moves good. If the new spring doesn't work I have a nice camshaft I will put in it.
mhomrighausen
Well-known member
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- Marlin Homrighausen
Biggest thing I've found to date that helps hold those footrest screw tight isn't rust. It is the paint that was still wet when the bolts were tightened and then the paint dried.
Off to work. Everyone have a safe and wonderful day.
Off to work. Everyone have a safe and wonderful day.
