Archive through February 22, 2014

[dfrisk]

HARRY, here's a "copy & paste" of exactly what you said, "By the way, all the comparison stuff didn't include the 982. That's a Super Garden Tractor and it's un-fair competition!!!!"

But I still think you're wrong that you can't compare the 982 to a 1650. Yes, the 782 most closely matched the 1650 in size, weight, & HP but Heck, you compare 12 & 14 HP WF Hydro's to 7 HP NF GD's in almost every post, so we can compare any darn pair of tractors we want right?

Someone looking at CC's back in 1980 would probably see a 682 & 782 on the dealer's floor, maybe even a 982. And if this person had enough money that they didn;t need to ask the price, they could buy stricktly on the available features & options, not on value on a "Cost Benefit" analysis. Only us poor people have to do that.

When you get right down to it, the same thing sold garden tractors that sold large farm tractors, their ability to reduce the work load on the owner, increase productivity, and their ability to run long and economically. The options/features available on the SGT's made them more able to do all those things than the "standard sized CC's" without those features.

On my 982, I use my steering brakes all the time, same thing on the 3-pt, ALWAYS something hooked to it, mostly my home-made A-frame adapter that I bolt a drawbar to, instant hyd. adjustable drawbar. Been years since I hooked anything to the stock drawbar. But I can swap over to my dethatcher in 2 minutes. I use the frt aux. remotes a lot too, and like I said, haven't used the rear PTO but have some nice projects in mind.

The SGT's were a choice the buyer had to make depending on how they intended to use their CC.

 

[dfrisk]

MARTY GWIN - re: 122 driveshaft & t/o bearing. Hard to tell from your description how much wear there really is. On a tractor that's 47 to 49 yrs old, and probably has the original factory parts still in it, I would replace them, new T/O bearing is now $55, drive shaft is $30 for a better than OEM d/s, and replace the clutch teaser spring too, for $5.18.

You know, clutches in those old GD's were only supposed to last 5-10 years tops according to all the Hydro vs GD debates we've had here. Your Dad has been on borrowed time for over 40 yrs! with that clutch.

 

[jbaker]

we need to direct Jeff over to the mtd section, but Keith you are right its an 1811 I have more info if we go to the sandbox

 

[hydroharry]

Dennis, Dennis, Dennis - gol-dang-it! Now you went and copied what I said "By the way, all the comparison stuff didn't include the 982. That's a Super Garden Tractor and it's un-fair competition".
The 2 key words are "comparison stuff". It's hard to go backwards and try to figure this out exactly now but I believe I was talking about the "IH literature" at that time. The 982 was a first!!!! Sure you can do a comparison between the SGT and GT but that doesn't make it "fair". It's probably gonna win out in ever category, cept maybe fuel consumption and turning radius.

Please don't get me wrong here. In my view the SGT was like the start of a new era (hmm, is 2 decades an era?) but it also cost close to twice as much. I loved my 1872 offspring from the 982, but I said several times the attachments cost as much as I'd have to pay for another whole tractor with attachments. So, as you state ""..."Cost Benefit" analysis. Only us poor people have to do that". I figured I could have a whole herd or I could have an SGT - so I sold the SGT and went for the herd.

(Did I tell you before the guy that sold me the 1872 advertised it as a CCC "lawn tractor" and when I called he told me he got it from his Dad and it was just to big for his yard? He didn't know the model either - so I just had to go look. Drove from CT to NY, maybe 70 miles, and boy was I surprised. Paid a little more than a lawn tractor price to get it, but when I sold it after working it over alot, replacing belts, blades on the monster deck, seat, decals and paint -mechanics were fine- I got 3+ tractors for my herd).

 

[dfrisk]

HARRY - Why does it seem that the guys with the REALLY neat toys have NO idea what they have, and really don't care? An 1872 as a "lawn tractor". I was looking for an 1872 or 2072 for several years when I found my 982 and bought it. I saw a nice loaded 2072 at a farm auction, 50" deck, snow blower, chains & weights, the owner replaced the mower deck blades instead of sharpening them, three sets of nearly new blades came with the mower, almost 100 miles from home. Had maybe 400-500 hours on it, the blower was used so little the paint was still on the scraping edge. Would have gone cheap, but a machinery scalper was bidding against me. I stopped bidding @ $2500 and he bought it for $2600. Problem was I couldn't have made a $100 check good back then!

The 1872/50C I looked at advertised in the paper had a LOT of hours, think around 1400-1500 hrs, no options, "Used hard and put away wet" was a good description, Guy wanted $3000, I sat $2000 on the seat in $100 Bills, he grabbed the key out of the ignition and stomped off into the house mumbling nasty things about My Mother, and he'd NEVER even met my Mother! Wife & I laughed the 40 miles home on that one!

Then on the other extreme, I see posts on these hobby forums all the time, "What did I buy? Did I get a good deal?" Somebody new to a hobby sees the first tractor, car, truck, airplane, bike, etc. and buys it, not even knowing what it actually is! And some of the items are BIG and expensive, severeal Thousands of Dollars.

Guess my 30+ yrs in purchasing makes me more cautious, I research my buys carefully, I can only spend a buck one time. I KNOW what I want and what it should cost before I go shopping!

 

[mgwin]

Dennis F.,

My dad bought the 122 a few years ago and had to have the engine rebuilt. I am helping him fix up the rest of the tractor, since he is almost 75 years old.
He has a 100 he uses to play around with.
He bought another clutch assembly for the 122, so I am using the best parts of both assemblies.
The 122 may make it to a local tractor show once a year, and an occasional few laps around the yard. Other than that, it will just sit under a shed.
Everything on the clutch assy. is in good shape. The shaft just has a little wear where the throwout bearing is located. I have a new clutch disc also.

 

[dfrisk]

MARTY - We discussed drive shaft wear where the T/O bearing slides a month or two ago. The sliding back & forth in operation should not wear the drive shaft OD down. would take literally millions of cycles of pushing the clutch in.

I suspect the t/o bearing is/was bad, maybe replaced once already. When you start to depress the clutch, the T/O lever touches the T/O bearing and if the bearing is not free to spin the inner race will not spin with the drive shaft while it is still spinning on engagement/disengagement causing lots of wear fast. If the inner race did sping with the D/S the T/O bearing would wear out the clutch lever in just a few dozen engagements/disengagements.

It's tough to spend money on a tractor that's not used much, but should last a long time even without new parts.

 

[jclazar]

The cast iron transmission in the IH Cub Cadets can allow a IH Cub Cadet to run past the competition, or next to. I seen a 100 keeping right on up with a big JD 455 tractor plowing field. Even the supers have draw backs, like a weak rock shaft assembly, and aluminum transmission. Therefore, that makes the engine the only weak point any NF or WF garden tractor.

Dennis F- [ can you believe it? ] "Even in 1971, a FULL ten years after the Original hit the market, many were still going strong!"

These garden tractors are very well made. What more can be said?

 

[drglinski]

X2 on the engine being the weakest point. (go figure, it wasn't made by IH.) Dad has rebuilt his 125 engine at least 3 times that I know of since he's had it from the (early 80s?) Never had any transmission issues, even living on a hill. May I add that the steering is also a weak point?

 

[mgwin]

Dennis,

I would say the throwout bearing and clutch lever were both replaced at some point in time, because the driveshaft is the only thing that shows wear.

 

[sblunier]

If a 100 was keeping up with a 455, somebody was in front slowing down the 455, or the 455 was plowing MUCH wider/deeper than the 100 (or had turf tires on it, etc.)

I agree, the IH CI trans is top notch......and my intent is not to be argumentative, but I have been in a LOT of GT plow day fields and 10hp gear drives do not keep up with more modern hydros, given equal plowing quality and wide open conditions. Gear drives are great fun to plow with and I have spent a lot of good times on a gear drive in the field, but my 12hp 100 with 19T second would not run with a Deere 455 SGT, or a 782, or 1650, 318, etc. The gear drive is consistent, steady, efficient, etc., but having a single 2nd gear speed (especially a 100 with the slow stock 16T second) means that hydros will gain on you, especially those with LOTS more weight and power like a 455. It's just not an apples to apples comparison.

Even in an "apples to apples" comparison, like a 108 vs 109, or 1200 vs 1250.....I'm betting on the hydro getting down the field faster. Even with the efficiency loss in the fluid drive train, the ability to perfectly match traction and power to the plow draft means that all of the power available is being put to the ground, not wasted as the governor backs out the throttle on light pulling sections. Equally fuel efficient???? Gallon/hr NO, hydro looses.....Acres/hr, much tighter race, as the hydro speeds up during lighter draft, eating up acres, but sacrificing efficiency.

IMHO, the only gear drives that can hang when everybody gets to "pushing" out in the furrows are the higher HP rigs with strong clutches and 19T or faster 2nd gears (+14hp single with MWSC clutch, 582 with 19T second, etc.), and even then the infinite speed of the hydro puts the gear drive at a speed disadvantage in the "easy" spots.

Should you be "pushing/racing" in the furrow, no........but we all like to step out to run down a Deere every now and then...

SOOOOOOO, I'm not saying GD's are bad plowing machines, just that the fixed tillage gear selection means that they are not quite as able to maximize performance when it really gets fun.....I mean serious....

......so how's that for starting a GD/Hydro war?!?!?!?!?!

 

[mgwin]

Got sidetracked from working on dad's 122 today. Picked up a 70 and had to tinker with it. I figured I couldn't go wrong, 100 bucks for a cub with all original parts (except no engine) in good condition. It even has the firestone gum dipped town and country tires!

 

[fcurrier]

Because I can:

 

[hydroharry]

Dennis - I just remembered I did have to do a few other things to the 1872. The guy had the lift set with down pressure which is why I suspect it really wore the front casters on that 60" deck. I had to work them over so they would sit straight (and take out the pin or what ever it was to stop the down pressure). The tractor had sat outside under a tarp for along time. Wasn't all rusted up but the paint had gone flat and the decals were ruined which is really why I had to paint it. The seat was shot to so that had to be replaced. Without mentioning a price I will say I sold it for double what I paid (not including repair costs, paint, decals, and as usual labor). Lets just say I hated to see it go but reality set in. The guy that bought it had a 10 acre park like area to mow (flat and not many trees) and I think it was perfect for him and he was really glad to pay the price I asked vs. new at the time.

Marty and Dennis - I know we had the discussions about the drive shaft on a clutch drive awhile back. I still have to disagree with Dennis. I had several units that had the wallowed drive shaft from a bad throwout bearing. If you just put a new bearing on it that flops around the bearing won't sit correctly which I think causes it to bind, and you'll just wear it really quick. I recall in my early days when I it took 2 weeks for a new shaft order, I just reversed the old shaft, rotated it 90degrees and drilled new holes for the roll pins. It seemed to work good for a couple weeks and then the whole shaft split so that idea went out the door as double the work. Might still be worth a try if you can drill the holes really accurate. Any thoughts on this Dennis?

Frank C - that Polar FREEZE is coming your way again - so yes, just because you can!!!! Go ahead and heat up your cellar and paint that gol-dang gas tank you cleaned all up last year before it rusts all up.

 

[dtanner]

Yellow and white (cub cadet )were my favorite colors and now GOLD is also. Gona be some partying going on up here . 40 deg F


Everyone have a great day !!

 

[dfrisk]

JOHN L. - Which rockshaft on an SGT is "weak"? They can have two, the mid-mount one plus tractors w/3-pt have a rear rockshaft. FWIW, I've never had a second's grief from either rockshaft on my 982.

Also, early 982's, like mine, had cast iron transmission housings, and diecast axle carriers, which started on the Q/L series. I have the serial number break in my parts book for the diecast rearend start-up, but not sure of the date the change was made.

The 1963 CC Dad traded for the 70 in '65 was repainted red/white by the dealer, and Dad found out about ten years ago that it was still mowing a card playing friend's lawn every week since 1965, so some early CC's lasted well into the 2000's. But still has no bearing on whether I want one or not.

STEVE B. - I saw a comment on another forum about "Cubbies crawling across a field plowing" made by a Mr Plow Wannabe. I was kind and didn't comment.

I fall plowed gardens for my Dad & Sister-in-law for a couple years when I first made my sleeve hitch. The 72 still had the little K181, 6-12 GY turf tires with no chains, even traction limited it was mostly 1st gear plowing, sometimes 2nd but not often. With the K241 I could run 2nd almost everywhere. Amazing what a 25% increase in HP does! A 70/100 w/16T 2nd should be able to run 2nd everywhere, but would still be slow compared to a 10 HP or bigger hydro.

At PD #2, I did run 1st gear all day, that packed black dirt was rolling over in huge slabs as I'm sure you remember. Pulled like we were plowing up asphalt! Several hydro trans. over-heated and boiled over the Hy-Tran that day. If I'd had a K301 or 321 I could have ran 2nd all day.

If you wanted to be really serious about plowing, a custom MWSC trans with a 2nd gear, 2nd & a half gear, and 2nd & 3/4 gear with 16+ HP would put you at the head of the pack. Using over-drive reduction gears would help. But I think being able to run in 95+% of the conditions at 4 MPH is pretty good. Until 1968 when IH released the Hydro 656, ALL tractors had fixed speeds in the gears, even the Ford Select-o-Speed, and it's later evolution, the JD Power-Shift. And we all (farmers) got done with field work just the same. I've said it here before, but it bares repeating, lots of people trash-talk about IH's Torque-Amplifier, and a full 75% of those people have NEVER even sat on the seat of a T/A equipped IH tractor, let alone run one. But back in 1954 IH came out with a true productivity booster second to none in the T/A. Hit a hill or tough spot, pull down to 2/3rds rated engine speed, pull the Magic Lever to increase pulling power 45%, never mind the frt wheels of the tractor a foot off the ground and keep going! When the hill or tough spot is behind you, shove the lever forward and get back to full speed. IH really should have put a T/A in a CC, maybe some day somebody will! I've spent enough time on other-colored tractors where you're stuck in a too-slow a gear most of the day because you can get through the tough spots as opposed to maximizing production by running the right gear for 75% of the field, and have a lower gear for the tough spots. Yes, you can stop and shift up & down, but that wastes time a=nd is extra wear & tear on the tractor, especially the clutch.

I really don't worry about those off color tractors and how fast they plow, If I plowed as shallow as most of them do, I'd be in 3rd gear plowing and pass them all anyhow. Remember their "Plow Day Measuring stick"? Plow too deep and get kicked off the field? Yes, I've had ground clearance issues at PD's, started pushing trash with the rearend housing of my CC, almost high-centered. But I could always throw my 26-12.00 Stones on and gain 1-1/2 inches more clearance, plus 13% more speed with my GD.

Will a GD always have the fastest possible speed available to maximize acres/hour like a Hydro? No. On the gallons per acre plowed, I agree, GD wins hands down. Takes a LOT of gas to heat up a hydro trans. That's wasted energy at $3.35/gal around here.

A GD & a Hydro each have their best uses. Heavy draft loads and jobs that require a constant speed like spraying or applying fertilizer I use a GD. For light draft loads, mowing, running a tiller, snow blower, I'd use a hydro. That's why I have both a GD & a hydro. And just for the record, I really enjoy mowing with a GD.

 

[dfrisk]

HARRY - I really hate to hear about CC's, especially a 1872 sitting outside, even under a tarp. Tractors in general are NOT meant to be exposed to weather. I leave my little car out in the rain, snow, hail, etc. But my Cubbies sleep indoors. Guess that's why my 33 yr old rattle-can paint job on my 72 looks as good as it does.

On the clutch & T/O bearing issue, I could type out a 5000+ word essay here on clutch theory and operation. I will say that the CC T/O bearing is kinda unusual in that it's inner race pilots on the spinning drive shaft, while 95+% of the rest of the single plate dry clutch T/O bearings pilot on a stationary tube over the input shaft.

I think the release lever swinging in an arc does tilt the bearing some, but no wear should result IF the T/O bearing spins freely.

I think the $30 MWSC 4140 pre-hardened steel driveshaft is a bargain, reduces if not eliminates wallowing out the rear hole in the driveshaft where the roll pin attaches to the coupler, and stops the T/O bearing from wearing the OD of the drive shaft. The 1018 steel shaft IH used was NOT the right material for the application. Like I've said before, one of the engineers I worked with at FARMALL said in 1979 that the 10, and especially 12 HP GD's were terribly hard on drive shafts. Too bad that fact wasn't known at LVL so they could have upgraded the driveshaft to 4140 Pre-hard or Stress-Proof steel, which is severely cold drawn 1144 grade steel. Check the mechanical spec's and suggested uses, and either one is ideal for the D/S, mauch better than 1018.

I don't think I would have drilled holes at 90 degrees to the factory holes in a used driveshaft. Too much metal removed in critically stressed areas, it would have been a short lived repair

 

[jhollis]

hello guys,
My 1200 is stuck in reverse, I can physically shift into all others gears but it only moves in reverse. I am going to tear into it, is there anything special I should look for? or will it be obvious? We use it at work to push dead cars around so I am getting tired of pushing cars by hand, plus I like the old tractor anyway

 

[jbaker]

joseph it is probaly a bent or broken shift fork or if your real lucky it just loosend up.

Pull the shifter and take look, I cant find a picture right now

 

[thoffman]

Joe "H",
The shifting fork is sliding/loose on the shaft.
Open it up, make sure it's neutral <u>AND</u> the transmission is in neutral, button it up and you're off to the races.