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1650 Starting Problems

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gmcfall

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Gary McFall
I bought a 1650 w/ seller's words that "it needs some TLC". Turns out it's missing all kinds of parts and needs major surgery. He started it by touching a loose wire somewhere. Got it home & could not for the life of me figure out how to start it. As I looked into it, I found the wiring cobbled and connections tied down incorrectly. Bought a new wiring harness & a couple hundred bucks of parts, including a PTO switch, safety switch, solenoid, heavy duty battery, carb, etc. Now when I turn the key, it clicks if I have the PTO switch turned to "on". If that switch is turned "off", there's no clicking. I'm at my wit's end. Suggestions? Thanks . . . .
 

kmcconaughey

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Here's the schematic. Make sure everything is connected correctly. Are you pressing the brake/clutch in when you try to start it? There should be a safety switch that the brake/clutch pedal actuates in order to start it.

217200-jpg.125628
 

wh cc guy

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The pto switch should be off and that turns the blades off. If you are in the seat and holding the brake pedal down the starter should turn the motor over. If not the wiring is probably not correct.
 

snicklas

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Did you replace the PTO Switch?

If you did, did you replace it with the proper switch? The factory switch is a SPDT Switch. It is "on" in both positions. When it is in the PTO On position that set of contacts powers the PTO, and the Starter should not function at all. When it is in the PTO Off position, the switch completes the starting circuit to allow starter operation. Is the click you hear when you switch to PTO on the PTO operating? The electric PTO on the quietlines is very similar to the clutch on an automotive A/C compressor, so should hear a similar click to the A/C cycling in a vehicle. The "PTO Off" circuit is the orange one in the above drawing. The contacts in the PTO switch have to be closed in the off position, and you have to have your foot on the brake (or that could have been bypassed in the last 40 years) for the trigger post on the starter solenoid to get power.

If you didn't replace the PTO switch, try wiggling it when you are trying to start it. Every once in a while I have to do this on my Quietlines.... Hit the key nothing, wiggle the PTO switch the starter start spinning.

What condition is the igntion switch in? They like to rust and the prongs will get loose, or even break off. I had one with what looked like a good switch, but had all kinds of strange problems. Tried a different switch and everything cleared up.
 

kashaver

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Kelvin Shaver
You need to determine what 'clicks'.

Is the "click' you hear coming from the PTO clutch? If so, it is getting power. A click from it will show that the coil is getting power and pulling the clutch plates together.

Is the click coming from the solenoid?



Looking at the wiring diagram,
 

kashaver

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Kelvin Shaver
Sorry about that above. (Somehow I accidentally posted it when I wanted to just back out with the Back arrow.)

Now that I have reflected on it, Where does your ground cable attach? Is the attachment point both clean and tight? I have at least one '4 digit' (1250) that has an extra ground cable that runs from the battery negative post all the way up the frame to one of the starter mount bolts. This is because of the isolator mounts on the engine cradle kept the engine from getting a good ground I guess. You can test the same way by using the black side of a regular jumper cable from the battery negative post to a good ground point on the engine.
 

gmcfall

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Gary McFall
Here's the schematic. Make sure everything is connected correctly. Are you pressing the brake/clutch in when you try to start it? There should be a safety switch that the brake/clutch pedal actuates in order to start it.

217200-jpg.125628
Tx. Used the diagram provided by the guy who made the wiring harness. Will double-check it, though!
 

gmcfall

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Gary McFall
The pto switch should be off and that turns the blades off. If you are in the seat and holding the brake pedal down the starter should turn the motor over. If not the wiring is probably not correct.
There's no safety switch connected. Will check into the PTO thing. Thanks!
 

gmcfall

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Gary McFall
Did you replace the PTO Switch?

If you did, did you replace it with the proper switch? The factory switch is a SPDT Switch. It is "on" in both positions. When it is in the PTO On position that set of contacts powers the PTO, and the Starter should not function at all. When it is in the PTO Off position, the switch completes the starting circuit to allow starter operation. Is the click you hear when you switch to PTO on the PTO operating? The electric PTO on the quietlines is very similar to the clutch on an automotive A/C compressor, so should hear a similar click to the A/C cycling in a vehicle. The "PTO Off" circuit is the orange one in the above drawing. The contacts in the PTO switch have to be closed in the off position, and you have to have your foot on the brake (or that could have been bypassed in the last 40 years) for the trigger post on the starter solenoid to get power.

If you didn't replace the PTO switch, try wiggling it when you are trying to start it. Every once in a while I have to do this on my Quietlines.... Hit the key nothing, wiggle the PTO switch the starter start spinning.

What condition is the igntion switch in? They like to rust and the prongs will get loose, or even break off. I had one with what looked like a good switch, but had all kinds of strange problems. Tried a different switch and everything cleared up.
Thanks. Bought the PTO switch from CC Specialties (vendor on this site) based on part number in Cub Parts diagram. Switch appears to be in good shape. Thanks for the feedback. You've given me some things to ponder/check!
 

gmcfall

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Gary McFall
You need to determine what 'clicks'.

Is the "click' you hear coming from the PTO clutch? If so, it is getting power. A click from it will show that the coil is getting power and pulling the clutch plates together.

Is the click coming from the solenoid?



Looking at the wiring diagram,
Thanks for the response. Not sure where the click is coming from. Will check for that, though!
 

gmcfall

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Gary McFall
E
Sorry about that above. (Somehow I accidentally posted it when I wanted to just back out with the Back arrow.)

Now that I have reflected on it, Where does your ground cable attach? Is the attachment point both clean and tight? I have at least one '4 digit' (1250) that has an extra ground cable that runs from the battery negative post all the way up the frame to one of the starter mount bolts. This is because of the isolator mounts on the engine cradle kept the engine from getting a good ground I guess. You can test the same way by using the black side of a regular jumper cable from the battery negative post to a good ground point on the engine.
Excellent suggestion. Will add that to my list of things to check!
 

dgaudet

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Daniel Gaudet
I have a 1650 that had similar issues. Turned out the pto switch was defective, but if I pushed in it a little without turning it on, the starter would work.

Turning the PTO on with the ignition already on will cause a click in the clutch

With the PTO off, the only click you should hear is the starter solenoid inside the console when you turn the key all the way.....the starter should go as well, but if it doesn’t you either have a bad solenoid or starter (I had bad solenoid once too)

Diagram above is the correct one. There is no clutch or seat interlock on mine. Only the PTO off interlock intended from starting the engine with PTO engaged

Daniel
 
Last edited:

dgaudet

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Daniel Gaudet
I have a 1650 that had similar issues. Turned out the pto switch was defective, but if I pushed in it a little without turning it on, the starter would work.

Turning the PTO on with the ignition already on will cause a click in the clutch

With the PTO off, the only click you should hear is the starter solenoid inside the console when you turn the key all the way.....the starter should go as well, but if it doesn’t you either have a bad solenoid or starter (I had bad solenoid once too)

Diagram above is the correct one. There is no clutch or seat interlock on the 1650. Only the PTO off interlock intended from starting the engine with the pto engaged

As far as grounds go, the starter solenoid is grounded to the frame inside the console, whereas the starter is grounded on the engine. It's pretty unlikely that the solenoid wouldn’t click even if the engine ground was missing....

Daniel
 

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gmcfall

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Gary McFall
The clutch clicks w/ the key on when I flip the PTO switch. No clicks from the solenoid. I confirmed the wiring harness was correctly connected and confirmed the grounds. Shorted the two big terminals on the solenoid. It started, but ran rough as heck and I didn't have enough hands to hold the screw driver and mess w/ the choke and throttle. It quit and I haven't been able to get it started yet.

I think I'm dealing w/ both a fuel & electrical problem. I've confirmed gas is getting into the bowl. When I crank it, though, the plug stays dry. Do you know of an easy test for the switch or should I just buy a new one and hope that fixes the electrical problem?

This experience reminds me of what my dad went through decades ago w/ a car that wouldn't start. He replaced part after part. Finally, out of frustration, he bought another new condenser. Boom, it started right up. Turns out the first new condenser was faulty.
 

mgonitzke

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Switch operation can be verified with a multimeter. Same with most any other component in the electrical system.

Electrical problems are very expensive to solve by replacing parts at random.
 

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