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When you're gearing up the Cub to go faster, just remember that the speed and HP/ballast requirement is NOT linear. During lunch I made a futile first attempt at a 3-D graph in excel contrasting speed vs. soil type vs. ballast/hp requirement.
B&B-
If someone knows how to make a sort of calculator based in Java or something, we could have some sort of proprietary (sp?) online plowing calculator, I've got some new #'s and formulas from the latest Machinery Management standards (Ag Engineering standard) The numbers are MUCH more inline than the formula I used to use, even can take into account whether a coulter is run or not.
B&B-
If someone knows how to make a sort of calculator based in Java or something, we could have some sort of proprietary (sp?) online plowing calculator, I've got some new #'s and formulas from the latest Machinery Management standards (Ag Engineering standard) The numbers are MUCH more inline than the formula I used to use, even can take into account whether a coulter is run or not.
Ah, late-night progress... did some more work on the diesel project... finished up the frame welds, took care of a crack, and changed out the wire in the MIG (it was gettin' nasty, and almost end-of-roll, so it found the trashcan!).
Next step is to figure out the engine mount arrangement, and to find a ring-gear that'll fit on this flywheel... perhaps cut the flywheel down 1/4" in OD to provide a little more 'squeak room' from the frame... at same time, I'll hafta fit it with some sort of coupler, and make a driveshaft... attach a fuel tank somewhere, get a Goldwing radiator, blah blah blah...
Next step is to figure out the engine mount arrangement, and to find a ring-gear that'll fit on this flywheel... perhaps cut the flywheel down 1/4" in OD to provide a little more 'squeak room' from the frame... at same time, I'll hafta fit it with some sort of coupler, and make a driveshaft... attach a fuel tank somewhere, get a Goldwing radiator, blah blah blah...
WYATT - Your new Formula package take into account Independent Front Suspension of FWA tractors like Dan's? ;-) Sorry, Couldn't resist. Sure wish You & I and a couple others here could arrange a "Field Trip" to CAT's test facility where they do some of their instrumented Tractive Effort tests. I could just see the next Articulated Cub Cadet now.... with FOUR rubber tracks! QUADRA-TRAC Cub Cadet!
R
rmull
Guest
Ken- Only peanut butter will do, but the wife usually make chocolate chip...
Wyatt- Once I get the gearing sped up, I actually plan on leaving weight off the front...probably about 100lbs would do the trick...maybe even less.
Wyatt- Once I get the gearing sped up, I actually plan on leaving weight off the front...probably about 100lbs would do the trick...maybe even less.
Ryan-
I guess my point was that adding more plow width or depth is a more efficient way of using the power. Without going too deep into the subject, the relationship of speed versus power/ballast requirement is exponential, i.e. the more HP added, the ability to keep adding gear in porportion doesn't keep up. BUT the relationship between plowed area, be it width or depth, is a linear relationship (they remain porportional).
I wish I would have tore the sheet out of my notepad, but over lunch I figured up that two tractors, both having 16hp, same soil, same plowing depth, but the faster of the two pulling a 10" plow, and the slower a 14" plow; after an hour, the faster tractor with a narrow plow would have made more rounds, but not enough to keep up with the area plowed by the slower tractor with a wider plow. BUT, the slower tractor does require quite a bit more ballast, something like 20% more. From memory it seemed like the slower tractor required about 100# of gross weight per engine horsepower which is pretty much right in line with full-sized wheel tractors.
I wish that since this is a pulling forum I could make a pulling analogy, but with my inexperience it'd be just a guess, maybe as to how it may be harder to just go up one step in gearing once you're in the modified classes as it might be easier to go up a gear in a stock class.
Required ballast and where it goes doesn't necessarily have anything to do with speed, it's all where/how the plow is hitched.
I guess my point was that adding more plow width or depth is a more efficient way of using the power. Without going too deep into the subject, the relationship of speed versus power/ballast requirement is exponential, i.e. the more HP added, the ability to keep adding gear in porportion doesn't keep up. BUT the relationship between plowed area, be it width or depth, is a linear relationship (they remain porportional).
I wish I would have tore the sheet out of my notepad, but over lunch I figured up that two tractors, both having 16hp, same soil, same plowing depth, but the faster of the two pulling a 10" plow, and the slower a 14" plow; after an hour, the faster tractor with a narrow plow would have made more rounds, but not enough to keep up with the area plowed by the slower tractor with a wider plow. BUT, the slower tractor does require quite a bit more ballast, something like 20% more. From memory it seemed like the slower tractor required about 100# of gross weight per engine horsepower which is pretty much right in line with full-sized wheel tractors.
I wish that since this is a pulling forum I could make a pulling analogy, but with my inexperience it'd be just a guess, maybe as to how it may be harder to just go up one step in gearing once you're in the modified classes as it might be easier to go up a gear in a stock class.
Required ballast and where it goes doesn't necessarily have anything to do with speed, it's all where/how the plow is hitched.
Well, pulling a sled and pulling a plow are really two totally different scenarios. When plowing, you absolutely, positively need traction on the front wheels... so you have directional stability in the furrow.
When pulling a sled, front-wheel steering is a luxury you get for a certain amount of time, and when you get to the end, if your drawbar is high enough, you'll end up with wheels-up, and tires digging... in which case (if you're good), you might be able to steer with your butt... that's what I did with Jim Bailey's 2182.
There's a pretty simple tractive-effort formula used in railway that estimates straight-line draft power (aka. tractive effort) as a function of weight over driven wheels. Let's say a locomotive weighs in at about 350,000 pounds, and ALL of it's weight is over driven wheels... and it's a steel wheel on a steel rail, both which are polished by daily running (shiny smooth). Typical locomotives (like a diesel electric DC-drive machine) will be able to generate about 105,000lbs of drawbar pull... or 30% of it's weight. If it's a modern AC-driven machine (same diesel though), it'll be able to pull more in the realm of 44% (154,000lbs) due to the ability of it's traction-control algorithm. likewise, braking (which is tractive effort) works out about the same way.
And it all comes down to coefficient of friction. (because friction is what makes traction work... at least until the force exceeds coefficient of friction... then tractive effort goes to pot)
With a pulling tractor, however, you're not on two consistent surfaces... you could be on ag tires in dirt, sand, pavement... any number of things- furthermore, the friction which you're using to pull the load is also acting on the sled... You're also not doing a static pull- you're moving something heavy, and the load is increasing by distance, so getting inertia will have a direct effect on how far you go before being overcome by the friction of sled downforce on the pad.
I'm guessing (and many of you can verify) that one of the rules of 'real' pulling, is that once you're in a ratio, 'ya gotta stay there... as opposed to what I did with Jim's tractor (eased the ratio back as the load got high)... Cheating? yeah, probably... but fun... definately!
Back to the diesel...
(Message edited by dkamp on May 21, 2004)
When pulling a sled, front-wheel steering is a luxury you get for a certain amount of time, and when you get to the end, if your drawbar is high enough, you'll end up with wheels-up, and tires digging... in which case (if you're good), you might be able to steer with your butt... that's what I did with Jim Bailey's 2182.
There's a pretty simple tractive-effort formula used in railway that estimates straight-line draft power (aka. tractive effort) as a function of weight over driven wheels. Let's say a locomotive weighs in at about 350,000 pounds, and ALL of it's weight is over driven wheels... and it's a steel wheel on a steel rail, both which are polished by daily running (shiny smooth). Typical locomotives (like a diesel electric DC-drive machine) will be able to generate about 105,000lbs of drawbar pull... or 30% of it's weight. If it's a modern AC-driven machine (same diesel though), it'll be able to pull more in the realm of 44% (154,000lbs) due to the ability of it's traction-control algorithm. likewise, braking (which is tractive effort) works out about the same way.
And it all comes down to coefficient of friction. (because friction is what makes traction work... at least until the force exceeds coefficient of friction... then tractive effort goes to pot)
With a pulling tractor, however, you're not on two consistent surfaces... you could be on ag tires in dirt, sand, pavement... any number of things- furthermore, the friction which you're using to pull the load is also acting on the sled... You're also not doing a static pull- you're moving something heavy, and the load is increasing by distance, so getting inertia will have a direct effect on how far you go before being overcome by the friction of sled downforce on the pad.
I'm guessing (and many of you can verify) that one of the rules of 'real' pulling, is that once you're in a ratio, 'ya gotta stay there... as opposed to what I did with Jim's tractor (eased the ratio back as the load got high)... Cheating? yeah, probably... but fun... definately!
Back to the diesel...
(Message edited by dkamp on May 21, 2004)
sblunier
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- Steve Blunier "Mr. Plow" (Central IL)
Dave,
I know of a 1206 that would pull a 3/8 mile long wheelie down the furrow while dragging 5 or 6 16" bottoms........kinda blows that front traction REQUIRED statement.
Hitching a plow is an art.........done correctly it's a master piece, done poorly it's finger paint. Unfortunately Brinly's don't allow you to reach "masterpiece" status because of some built in limitations.
OTHERWISE (centered hook).......the wheel with the most traction determines which way you go.......
I know of a 1206 that would pull a 3/8 mile long wheelie down the furrow while dragging 5 or 6 16" bottoms........kinda blows that front traction REQUIRED statement.
Hitching a plow is an art.........done correctly it's a master piece, done poorly it's finger paint. Unfortunately Brinly's don't allow you to reach "masterpiece" status because of some built in limitations.
OTHERWISE (centered hook).......the wheel with the most traction determines which way you go.......
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"Body English"....
Steve was just reaching out for a beer.......
sblunier
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- Steve Blunier "Mr. Plow" (Central IL)
Denny,
Exactly!!!! I definately have not forgotten that...
"OTHERWISE (centered hook).......the wheel with the most traction determines which way you go......."
If my peanut M&M enhanced figure slides over to the wheel not getting traction, it gets more.........and determines which way the tractor will go
I wasn't disagreeing with Dave's statements, but making Wyatt's point, that a plow and a pull are very different things and HITCHING is what makes a plow work to it's potential....not front end steering. Now, if that crazy little Brinly design and the size and physical dimensions of our tractors would allow for ideal hitching, all we'd have to do is decide how much of our "enhanced figures" we would have to bias side to side to keep the traction equal and the machine would walk straight down the furrow.
Exactly!!!! I definately have not forgotten that...
"OTHERWISE (centered hook).......the wheel with the most traction determines which way you go......."
If my peanut M&M enhanced figure slides over to the wheel not getting traction, it gets more.........and determines which way the tractor will go
I wasn't disagreeing with Dave's statements, but making Wyatt's point, that a plow and a pull are very different things and HITCHING is what makes a plow work to it's potential....not front end steering. Now, if that crazy little Brinly design and the size and physical dimensions of our tractors would allow for ideal hitching, all we'd have to do is decide how much of our "enhanced figures" we would have to bias side to side to keep the traction equal and the machine would walk straight down the furrow.
. . . . and I guess I was working at what trade-offs are and what can be done with more power. I guess I was pointing at that if someone wanted to be creative and was tired trying to run 6MPH they do have options as to possibly going wider, or more bottoms. Sounds tough, and it's been tried, but that's just once.
Steve! Yeah- after your explanations, and Keith's setup, and watching others at Prophetstown, it's clear that when the plow's set right, it'll steer itself down the furrow. I'd expect, though, that one would prefer to have the option of using the steering wheel.
PD7 was the first opportunity I'd had of pulling with a GT, and I enjoyed the heck out of it- I've pulled a sled on casual occasions before- using my grandfather's A/C D17, a Holt steam tractor (Cool, but Hot!), and a big-block rail somethingorother with a flatfender Jeep body. The D17 was hitched so low that it never lifted wheels, so body english was fruitless. the Holt... well, it's so big that even if I took a walk, it wouldn't have any effect... ...and the rail thing... uh... I chickened-out and shut it down before something really bad could happen.
But I've body-englished (Butt-steered) pulling in other scenarios, so it's not alien to me. I butt-steered Jim's 2182 around everyone else's ruts. It was hitched a tad too high, as it'd get jumpy if I wasn't smooth when I transferred my weight. Frankly, I was impressed at how well it steered with light beneath the tires, but I don't think I'd wanna plow that way for too long.
John- MMO and Methanol? Wow... that'd be an interesting smell... hmmm... might need a couple'a extra crewmen with brooms too... it might rain fire... (cool!)
Aside question... I saw guys chipping dirt off the moldboards, and others spraying on oil of some kind... and looking at the share, I see that the dirt-abrasion is pretty noticeable. How much heating is going on in that share when plowing- I'd assume it gets at-least warm to the touch... with a big plow (behind your 1206, for example)... does the share ever get too hot to touch?
PD7 was the first opportunity I'd had of pulling with a GT, and I enjoyed the heck out of it- I've pulled a sled on casual occasions before- using my grandfather's A/C D17, a Holt steam tractor (Cool, but Hot!), and a big-block rail somethingorother with a flatfender Jeep body. The D17 was hitched so low that it never lifted wheels, so body english was fruitless. the Holt... well, it's so big that even if I took a walk, it wouldn't have any effect... ...and the rail thing... uh... I chickened-out and shut it down before something really bad could happen.
But I've body-englished (Butt-steered) pulling in other scenarios, so it's not alien to me. I butt-steered Jim's 2182 around everyone else's ruts. It was hitched a tad too high, as it'd get jumpy if I wasn't smooth when I transferred my weight. Frankly, I was impressed at how well it steered with light beneath the tires, but I don't think I'd wanna plow that way for too long.
John- MMO and Methanol? Wow... that'd be an interesting smell... hmmm... might need a couple'a extra crewmen with brooms too... it might rain fire... (cool!)
Aside question... I saw guys chipping dirt off the moldboards, and others spraying on oil of some kind... and looking at the share, I see that the dirt-abrasion is pretty noticeable. How much heating is going on in that share when plowing- I'd assume it gets at-least warm to the touch... with a big plow (behind your 1206, for example)... does the share ever get too hot to touch?
D
dvogt
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If you want top lube just buy the top lube additive. it will fail a water test no matter what you put in it and contaminate your fuel systom. In NQS no one runs it for those reasons
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