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Rear PTO atachments
- Thread starter jmburge
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The rear PTO on early CC's was more of a spin-off from the CUB Farmall origins of the gear drive CC's. A PTO was required to use the CUB as a mobile power unit, the speed and size/spline count on the shaft was not per ASAE spec's but it could be used to drive flat belts or V-belts for driving equip. The CUB PTO turned at engine RPM, 1400 to 1800 RPM depending on age of the tractor. In the Cub Cadet the PTO actually turned the wrong way at only 515 rpm, not the ASAE 540 RPM standard.
Company called HUB CITY MFG. did make a conversion gearbox that changed RPM & direction of rotation, & spline size to conform to ASAE spec's but it also is fairly hard to find.
Most of the companies who made equipment to use of the Cub Cadet did not make equip. for the rear PTO since it wasn't "Live", meaning it was controlled by the tractor's transmission clutch. It was much easier to use the live front engine clutch and additional belts & gearboxes to run attachments.
There have been several people who made or modified attachments run by the rear PTO like mowers, etc. but they were home-made.
On later tractors like the 982 & other SGT's a live rear pto was an option, same odd-ball spline but a female spline, not male, and 2000 rpm. A few attachments like roto-tillers, rough-cut & finish mowers were made for those but they also are kinda rare.
Company called HUB CITY MFG. did make a conversion gearbox that changed RPM & direction of rotation, & spline size to conform to ASAE spec's but it also is fairly hard to find.
Most of the companies who made equipment to use of the Cub Cadet did not make equip. for the rear PTO since it wasn't "Live", meaning it was controlled by the tractor's transmission clutch. It was much easier to use the live front engine clutch and additional belts & gearboxes to run attachments.
There have been several people who made or modified attachments run by the rear PTO like mowers, etc. but they were home-made.
On later tractors like the 982 & other SGT's a live rear pto was an option, same odd-ball spline but a female spline, not male, and 2000 rpm. A few attachments like roto-tillers, rough-cut & finish mowers were made for those but they also are kinda rare.
Hey Jason
I know a guy down the road who runs an ice cream maker off his flat belt. Here's a couple photos of my CC 100 running my friend Wally's corn sheller this past summer. I think the guy to the left in the one photo was a hired model. He's not cheap but really works for the camera. (Merry Christmas Don B.)
I know a guy down the road who runs an ice cream maker off his flat belt. Here's a couple photos of my CC 100 running my friend Wally's corn sheller this past summer. I think the guy to the left in the one photo was a hired model. He's not cheap but really works for the camera. (Merry Christmas Don B.)
Dennis F and Mike L
thanks for the Info and Pics.
I was thinking about instaling a PTO I scrounged from a farmall cub in my Orginal to power a Hyd pump on a logspliter, I've seen it done on larger tractors. Would it be strong/fast enough to do this?
thanks for the Info and Pics.
I was thinking about instaling a PTO I scrounged from a farmall cub in my Orginal to power a Hyd pump on a logspliter, I've seen it done on larger tractors. Would it be strong/fast enough to do this?
Dennis,
My understanding (not to be confused with actual knowledge) of the Cub vs. Cub Cadet PTO sort of agrees with what you're saying. Rotation of the two is opposite because the rotation of input to the transmission is opposite. Cub PTO rpm matches engine speed at 1400 to 1800 rpm as you say.
I thought that direction of rotation was non-standard on the Cub. The Hub City gear box was for the Cub. It reversed rotation and reduced speed to match the standard 540. I think it also relocated the PTO somewhere at least close to center on the tractor. It was still in their catalog and price sheet 3 or 4 years ago, but when I called it was discontinued and out of stock. It's not in the new catalogs. List price was a bit over $300. I saw a used one bring over $600 on ebay a couple years ago.
I talked to a guy last year whose father-in-law had used a 100 rear PTO for several years to run a grain auger. To me that reinforces the notion that the Cub Cadet PTO rotation is standard and speed is probably in the neighborhood of the standard 540 rpm, also. By the way, I think Hub City makes a sleeve that will adapt Cub/Cub Cadet PTO spline to the standard spline. If anyone is interested in acquiring one I can check the catalogs in my office.
With PTO speed matching transmission input speed, the Cub Cadet would turn at 3600 rpm divided by whatever the ratio of the reduction box on the front of the transmission. A 515 rpm PTO would require that reduction to be about 7:1. I don't know what that ratio actually is.
Another interesting thing I hadn't thought about before...A creeper drive will also reduce PTO speed in low range, so reducing tractor speed with creeper will slow down any equipment you might run off the rear PTO.
Jerry
My understanding (not to be confused with actual knowledge) of the Cub vs. Cub Cadet PTO sort of agrees with what you're saying. Rotation of the two is opposite because the rotation of input to the transmission is opposite. Cub PTO rpm matches engine speed at 1400 to 1800 rpm as you say.
I thought that direction of rotation was non-standard on the Cub. The Hub City gear box was for the Cub. It reversed rotation and reduced speed to match the standard 540. I think it also relocated the PTO somewhere at least close to center on the tractor. It was still in their catalog and price sheet 3 or 4 years ago, but when I called it was discontinued and out of stock. It's not in the new catalogs. List price was a bit over $300. I saw a used one bring over $600 on ebay a couple years ago.
I talked to a guy last year whose father-in-law had used a 100 rear PTO for several years to run a grain auger. To me that reinforces the notion that the Cub Cadet PTO rotation is standard and speed is probably in the neighborhood of the standard 540 rpm, also. By the way, I think Hub City makes a sleeve that will adapt Cub/Cub Cadet PTO spline to the standard spline. If anyone is interested in acquiring one I can check the catalogs in my office.
With PTO speed matching transmission input speed, the Cub Cadet would turn at 3600 rpm divided by whatever the ratio of the reduction box on the front of the transmission. A 515 rpm PTO would require that reduction to be about 7:1. I don't know what that ratio actually is.
Another interesting thing I hadn't thought about before...A creeper drive will also reduce PTO speed in low range, so reducing tractor speed with creeper will slow down any equipment you might run off the rear PTO.
Jerry
Jerry the reduction houseing is 7-1 and what makes it turn backwards. Years ago elevators could be run off either side so the cub could be used just by flipping the pto shaft to the other side of the elevator. Same with some augers.
The adapters to make the cub shaft work with standard pto used to be available at any farm store, Dad got one for the F-14 at Farm&Fleet or TSC 40 years ago and they were not expensive. Don't know about now.
The adapters to make the cub shaft work with standard pto used to be available at any farm store, Dad got one for the F-14 at Farm&Fleet or TSC 40 years ago and they were not expensive. Don't know about now.
JERRY - Like the PTO itself, the Hub City gearbox for the CUB also fit the Cub Cadet. Maybe Your catalog can confirm my "Fuzzy" memories of a picture of the catalog here many many yrs ago but I seem to remember three models available. One for the CUB that dropped that 1400-1800 rpm down to around 540 with the ASAE 1-3/8" six pline shaft. Then another that speeded up the 515 rpm Cub Cadet reverse rotation to 540 with the ASAE 1-3/8" 6-spline turning the correct way. I can't remember the spec's on the other one, may have been CUB specific. I haven't been around CUB's all that much, Dad had a '57 LoBoy for a few years, but I seem to remember the PTO turned "Clockwise" looking at the shaft from behind the tractor, same as an ASAE spec. PTO. Like Dave says, the 7:1 reduction in front of the rearend in 70/100, and newer CC's makes them turn "Counter-clockwise" & 515 RPM.
Like I said, the gearboxes are pretty rare, the CC models especially but if I remember correctly CHARLIE got one several yrs ago and may still have it. They're not as rare as the M&W 9-speed for '61-'63 CC's but close.
The spec's and operating instructions for the rear PTO are in my operator's manual for the 72/104/105/124/125 tractors and I'm sure all of the others. The adapters DAVE mentions for the F-14 was probably a 1-1/8" 6-spline to 1-3/8" 6-spline. Even early H's & M's had 1-1/8" PTO's. Dad bought a '40 JD styled B back in about Dec. '69 that needed that adapter also. We tried to run the bale elevator with it but it just didn't run smooth enough, so We still used the M on it all the time. And for putting hay in the back barn the M/with loader just took up way too much room in the cattle & hog lot, the CC 70 would have been perfect for that. And the fact the PTO shaft on the bale elevator was not standard would have kept all the neighbors from borrowing it and tearing it up!
JASON - Yes, the PTO should be able to run a hyd. pump to run a log splitter. The full 7, 10, or 12 HP should run it quite well. Unless You speed the pump up with a v-belt & pulleys it would have to be a BIG pump. I think Northern still shows a couple pumps in their Master cat. for PTO operation, think it's something like 12 GPM @ 540 & 22 GPM @ 1000 rpm.
Since the "Original" is actually kinda an "oddball" CC I'm not sure what the actual input RPM into the rearend is with the belt reduction. I know there's no reduction gears like the 70/100 & newer GD's. The CUB transmission input shaft is WAY too long to fit into a CC, It extended all the way thru the clutch housing into the clutch disc on the CUB. The correct CC shaft was much shorter. I know the modifications required to install a CUB pto into a Cub Cadet have been discussed here but I can't remember specifics or when or Who did them.
Like I said, the gearboxes are pretty rare, the CC models especially but if I remember correctly CHARLIE got one several yrs ago and may still have it. They're not as rare as the M&W 9-speed for '61-'63 CC's but close.
The spec's and operating instructions for the rear PTO are in my operator's manual for the 72/104/105/124/125 tractors and I'm sure all of the others. The adapters DAVE mentions for the F-14 was probably a 1-1/8" 6-spline to 1-3/8" 6-spline. Even early H's & M's had 1-1/8" PTO's. Dad bought a '40 JD styled B back in about Dec. '69 that needed that adapter also. We tried to run the bale elevator with it but it just didn't run smooth enough, so We still used the M on it all the time. And for putting hay in the back barn the M/with loader just took up way too much room in the cattle & hog lot, the CC 70 would have been perfect for that. And the fact the PTO shaft on the bale elevator was not standard would have kept all the neighbors from borrowing it and tearing it up!
JASON - Yes, the PTO should be able to run a hyd. pump to run a log splitter. The full 7, 10, or 12 HP should run it quite well. Unless You speed the pump up with a v-belt & pulleys it would have to be a BIG pump. I think Northern still shows a couple pumps in their Master cat. for PTO operation, think it's something like 12 GPM @ 540 & 22 GPM @ 1000 rpm.
Since the "Original" is actually kinda an "oddball" CC I'm not sure what the actual input RPM into the rearend is with the belt reduction. I know there's no reduction gears like the 70/100 & newer GD's. The CUB transmission input shaft is WAY too long to fit into a CC, It extended all the way thru the clutch housing into the clutch disc on the CUB. The correct CC shaft was much shorter. I know the modifications required to install a CUB pto into a Cub Cadet have been discussed here but I can't remember specifics or when or Who did them.
Got to the office expecting to look at the old Hub City catalog, but found I only have the new one here. I think the old one is in a file cabinet in the garage so I'll have to look tonight.
I checked the Cub and Cub Cadet manuals this morning for PTO specs. As others have said the Cadet spins 515 rpm CCW. The Cub manual only stated that the PTO spins at engine speed without specifying rotation. My Cub is down with a cracked block, so I can't fire it up and check. However, I'm convinced that when I was researching them about 10 years ago that several sources claimed the rotation was non-standard.
Cub tractors have reduction boxes at the wheels which reduce speed and change direction of rotation, so the Cub differential has to be spinning opposite of the Cadet. That means that either transmission rotation is opposite throughout or the differential carrier is flipped. I seem to remember a reference in one of the Cub Cadet history books about the carrier being flipped in the Cadet vs. Cub. If that's the case, transmission rotation and PTO rotation would be the same for both tractors. Anybody know off-hand if the carriers are flipped?
Cub Cadet engine rotation is CW viewed from the rear, CCW viewed from the front, right? I believe, subject to verification that the C-60 in the Cub rotated CW viewed from the front. If those two statements are correct, then transmission rotation would be the same for both tractors due to the direction change in the Cadet reduction unit and the PTO rotation would be in the same direction. This would require that the carrier be flipped in the Cadet vs. Cub.
Can anybody confirm or deny any of this before I can check the carrier orientations tonight? I'd really like to be wrong about the Cub tractor direction of rotation because it would be relatively easy to build a chain reduction box to get the rpm down if the rotation is already CW.
By the way, the parts book does show a reduction unit on the front of Original transmission, but the pinion is below the mainshaft instead of above like the later Cub Cadets.
Jerry
I checked the Cub and Cub Cadet manuals this morning for PTO specs. As others have said the Cadet spins 515 rpm CCW. The Cub manual only stated that the PTO spins at engine speed without specifying rotation. My Cub is down with a cracked block, so I can't fire it up and check. However, I'm convinced that when I was researching them about 10 years ago that several sources claimed the rotation was non-standard.
Cub tractors have reduction boxes at the wheels which reduce speed and change direction of rotation, so the Cub differential has to be spinning opposite of the Cadet. That means that either transmission rotation is opposite throughout or the differential carrier is flipped. I seem to remember a reference in one of the Cub Cadet history books about the carrier being flipped in the Cadet vs. Cub. If that's the case, transmission rotation and PTO rotation would be the same for both tractors. Anybody know off-hand if the carriers are flipped?
Cub Cadet engine rotation is CW viewed from the rear, CCW viewed from the front, right? I believe, subject to verification that the C-60 in the Cub rotated CW viewed from the front. If those two statements are correct, then transmission rotation would be the same for both tractors due to the direction change in the Cadet reduction unit and the PTO rotation would be in the same direction. This would require that the carrier be flipped in the Cadet vs. Cub.
Can anybody confirm or deny any of this before I can check the carrier orientations tonight? I'd really like to be wrong about the Cub tractor direction of rotation because it would be relatively easy to build a chain reduction box to get the rpm down if the rotation is already CW.
By the way, the parts book does show a reduction unit on the front of Original transmission, but the pinion is below the mainshaft instead of above like the later Cub Cadets.
Jerry
From a 1968 Cub Cadet Parts and Accessories Catalog.
Farmall Cub PTO rotates CCW at 1600RPM.
bbrigham
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- Brendan Brigham
I put a Cub PTO into a Cub Cadet (O) last year. I ended up TIGing a piece of the Cub input shaft onto the O input shaft to get the splines I needed.
I'm making my own attachments to make this useful, I have a rear mount sickle bar almost done. I may also make a brush hog. Not sure what else...yet.
I'm making my own attachments to make this useful, I have a rear mount sickle bar almost done. I may also make a brush hog. Not sure what else...yet.
No luck on finding the old Hub City catalog. I must have thrown it out when I purged my office about 6 months ago.
From what I've found in service manuals, the Cub PTO is driven through the transmission with the same rotation as the engine. The Cadet PTO is driven through the transmission in the opposite rotation from the engine. The 154/184/185 PTO is belt driven from the crank in the same rotation as the engine and passes along the outside of the transmission.
Brendan, before seeing your post I had always assumed that adding a Cub PTO to a Cadet would be a bolt-in swap aside from the shift linkage. After examining the cutaway views of both transmissions, it's now obvious that the Cadet mainshaft doesn't have the spline to drive the PTO.
Something else to consider when setting up a Cub Cadet PTO...I don't know what torque and shock loading the Cub tractor PTO shaft was originally designed for, but I think my '48 engine is rated at 9-1/2 hp and the PTO spins at 1600 rpm. That same PTO shaft transferring 7 hp at 515 rpm in an Original is subjected to about 2.5 times the torque as in a Cub. Drive it with a 14 hp Kohler and you're looking at 5 times the torque of the Cub PTO.
I would think twice about what I'd drive with the rear PTO on a Cadet. I'd think operating anything that can subject the PTO shaft to a shock load would be begging for trouble in the long run, whether it's with a rare OEM part or a welded one with a lot of labor hours invested. At least incorporating a slip clutch or some sort of dampener into the system would be good insurance.
Just a little food for thought,
Jerry
From what I've found in service manuals, the Cub PTO is driven through the transmission with the same rotation as the engine. The Cadet PTO is driven through the transmission in the opposite rotation from the engine. The 154/184/185 PTO is belt driven from the crank in the same rotation as the engine and passes along the outside of the transmission.
Brendan, before seeing your post I had always assumed that adding a Cub PTO to a Cadet would be a bolt-in swap aside from the shift linkage. After examining the cutaway views of both transmissions, it's now obvious that the Cadet mainshaft doesn't have the spline to drive the PTO.
Something else to consider when setting up a Cub Cadet PTO...I don't know what torque and shock loading the Cub tractor PTO shaft was originally designed for, but I think my '48 engine is rated at 9-1/2 hp and the PTO spins at 1600 rpm. That same PTO shaft transferring 7 hp at 515 rpm in an Original is subjected to about 2.5 times the torque as in a Cub. Drive it with a 14 hp Kohler and you're looking at 5 times the torque of the Cub PTO.
I would think twice about what I'd drive with the rear PTO on a Cadet. I'd think operating anything that can subject the PTO shaft to a shock load would be begging for trouble in the long run, whether it's with a rare OEM part or a welded one with a lot of labor hours invested. At least incorporating a slip clutch or some sort of dampener into the system would be good insurance.
Just a little food for thought,
Jerry
Jerry M.
That's why Hub City made the reverser.
That's why Hub City made the reverser.
I found it much easier to just stick this on the front of a tractor and be done with it.
JERRY - Yes, the little C60 Cub engine was really gentle on the rearends of a CUB. A strong Kohler in front of a Cub Cadet pounds the daylights out of it by comparison. I've been told the top sliding gear shaft in GD Cub Cadets is the weak spot, Guess that's why MWSC makes an alloy version, IH used mostly 1045 forgings for gears & shafts. But that OEM top shaft was supposed to be good for 15 HP in CC, but that doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with the rear PTO. ANYHOW, I would think the rear PTO could handle anything within the HP rating of a GD tractor. I mean if someone drops a 4.3L V-6 into a CC I would NOT try to run a PTO dyno with one in that situation. And as always, shock loading is what normally tears things up, that instantaneous overload.
Having been around FARMALL's all my life, the old transmission driven PTO's have never been "Problems". Occasionally something weird happens and the splined shaft sticking out of the back of the rearend breaks, afterall it's only 1-3/8" dia., and the old rawhide oilseals dry up and leak. Both my Super H & M have spent thousands of hours doing PTO work, the M especially. It lived under the 2M-E picker for 21 or 22 falls, ground cattle feed all winter for close to 30 yrs. Super H also ground some feed but it sure didn't like it! And cut thousands of acres of hay, clipped pasture, chopped stalks, etc. with a 6-ft Brillion rotary cutter. It also did a little "Landscaping" with that chopper from time to time. I used to carry a pound coffee can full of shear bolts in the toolbox all summer.
I agree 100% with your comment about using some sort of dampener on ANY kind of power driven equipment. V-belts actually make great dampeners.
Speaking of IH and PTO's, IH had one of the greatest live PTO designs in the industry, they had both shafts geared together in the same housing, hyd. clutches, brakes, even had it's own hyd. pump. Some antique tractor pulling groups require the tractors to make a dyno pull to make sure they're "Legal" Even though a 1206, 1456, etc. was supposed to be only 120 to 150 HP, those old PTO's handle 400 HP before the wet clutches start to slip. Typical IH, Build it to take 2-3 times what it has too!
Having been around FARMALL's all my life, the old transmission driven PTO's have never been "Problems". Occasionally something weird happens and the splined shaft sticking out of the back of the rearend breaks, afterall it's only 1-3/8" dia., and the old rawhide oilseals dry up and leak. Both my Super H & M have spent thousands of hours doing PTO work, the M especially. It lived under the 2M-E picker for 21 or 22 falls, ground cattle feed all winter for close to 30 yrs. Super H also ground some feed but it sure didn't like it! And cut thousands of acres of hay, clipped pasture, chopped stalks, etc. with a 6-ft Brillion rotary cutter. It also did a little "Landscaping" with that chopper from time to time. I used to carry a pound coffee can full of shear bolts in the toolbox all summer.
I agree 100% with your comment about using some sort of dampener on ANY kind of power driven equipment. V-belts actually make great dampeners.
Speaking of IH and PTO's, IH had one of the greatest live PTO designs in the industry, they had both shafts geared together in the same housing, hyd. clutches, brakes, even had it's own hyd. pump. Some antique tractor pulling groups require the tractors to make a dyno pull to make sure they're "Legal" Even though a 1206, 1456, etc. was supposed to be only 120 to 150 HP, those old PTO's handle 400 HP before the wet clutches start to slip. Typical IH, Build it to take 2-3 times what it has too!
bbrigham
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Jerry...The only part that isn't a bolt on swap in an O is the main shaft. The linkage is only different from the 70 and up cause they need to work around the frame. A drive line clutch would be nice but on Cub Cadets there just isn't room. I'm shooting to use the one shaft to drive everything as the female PTO yoke is turning out to be quite elusive, there is a Kubota yoke that has the same diameter and spline but I had lost my info on it. The PTO drive shaft on mine is only gonna be about 20" long but will still end up using a belt to get to the sickle, with a brush mower there will also be a belt in the mix. Another thought I have is taking one of those heavy electric driven cement mixer and building a towable frame work for it and also use the PTO to drive that. I'm sure that wouldn't be used a whole lot, more of a novelty I suppose.
Charlie...You've obviously got waayyy too many toys
Speakin of which...you seen one of those front PTO driven chainsaws around ? I've spoken to several guys in the UK where they were sold and they've never seen one
Charlie...You've obviously got waayyy too many toys
Speakin of which...you seen one of those front PTO driven chainsaws around ? I've spoken to several guys in the UK where they were sold and they've never seen one
