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Loaders & Pumps....

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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mpatterson

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
1,216
Location
Ontario, Canada
displayname
Mike Patterson
Ok, this has been bugging me for some time. Those of you who have loaders or have built them, where do you get the pumps for them? Neighbour came over yesterday when I was cleaning the almost 2 feet of snow off my roof and cleaned up the mess for me. He has an off brand tractor with a loader on it that he and his son made. Its pretty slick I have to say! Now you wouldn't be moving anything in a big hurry with it, but it certainly beats using a SHOVEL! We got to talking about stuff and then the wife was
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about coming in for lunch. SO... I didn't get to ask him about where he found his pump. His is set up that the resevoir tank is on the back of the tractor, looks like it would hold 1 to 2 gallons of oil maybe. The lines are pretty well placed for the most part and look ok. I know Don T. didn't like his layout of his lines on his loader and was into changing them over the past year or so. I know I will never find a loader to put on my tractors so I thought why not build one some day? I am going to guess that if you have a loader on the tractor you will never be able to run a tiller on it since you'd need the pto to run the pump for the loader? Or is there another way to run it without having to turn on the pto all the time? I just think the little bit he did in moving the wet sloppy snow paid for itself right there! He scrapped down the drive way in front of the garage and made my life a lot easier. I would have spent an hour frigg'n with the snow & ice at least. The old walk behind Cub wouldn't do much, it was just way too heavy and packed. I guess if I had a blade on a tractor with chains and weights it would have done OK, but the loader certainly would come in handy for other things around the yard.

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Mike Patterson

The pump I put on my 129 came from Harbour freight and is a 4 to 8 gallon a minute pump made to work off a pulley and belt.I know this pump could be run off the back of the hydro pump and I have see a few set up like that. But I think if you build a loader you would want another Cub to run the tiller ;just because of the bucket getting in the way moving the tractor around shrubs . I Did get my lines redone and still not completely happy with them . But they do look neater Than the mess I had .

The mess !

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After all new lines !

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Some day I will get the decals on it lol.
 
Northern Tools has pumps, reserviors, cylinders, valves, hoses, etc. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&Ntt=hyd%2Bpumps And many find what they need at The Surplus Center. http://www.surpluscenter.com/

Loader plans are available here, http://www.p.f.engineering.50megs.com/

Word of advice about sizing your pump, error to the LARGER size. They only cost a little bit more and you can still get good cycle times raising & lowering the loader & dumping the bucket at part throttle. Nothing worse than wasting time having to wait for a slow loader to raise/lower.

Your pump will only generate enough pressure to move what your trying to lift, it won't make maximum pressure all the time, so they don't take that much HP to run.

If it was me, I'd put your loader on your 982. You have the option of running the pump off either the frt or rear PTO. Plus the longer wheel base of the 982 counter acts the forward weight bias of the loader better than a shorter wheel base, you won't need to add as much rear weight.
 
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Can't believe I am going to ask this - but, when you guys are talking about rear pto, your talking the output shaft on my 982 right? Since my machine does not have the pto option, I can hook up the pump to run direct off that short stub shaft of the hydro unit? Only problem with putting the loader on the 982 is mowing grass. I normally use it to mow grass since it has the bigger deck and having a loader on the front would be a pain. Using the tractor with the tiller and the loader wouldn't be too much of an issue since I don't have to go around anything except my fence around the garden and so far I do not till right up to it so I don't imagine running into it would be too much of an issue?

Reason I was asking about the tiller is "IF" I get the cab mounted to the 782, I'd use it to till the garden when needed. I could remove the doors if it was too hot and that way my 2B tiller would bolt on direct without any modifications to make it fit on the 982 like I was thinking before. ONLY kicker would be I would have to be able to remove the loader so I could put the blower on in the winter for the 782 to be used since it would have the cab on it. Hmmmmm....then if I do make it removeable like Dennis said, put it on the 982. How much of a pain is it to remove these loaders for those who have them? Can you make them "quick attach" style to make it easier? If I was able to do that, then I could still mow with the 982 perhaps just remove the loader and keep the frame on the tractor still in hopes of desigining it NOT to get in the way of the mower deck.
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SO MANY QUESTIONS!! Only thing I am trying to avoid is having ANOTHER tractor just to use a loader? Maybe more of a pipe dream than anything at this point?

Although, I do like Dennis's idea of mounting it to a 982. Not sure who this lucky guy is, but found this picture few years ago on a site, now that is one sweet looking 982!
 
Guess it would help adding the picture!
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Don, Dennis,
You guys have pictures of how your pump is mounted on your tractors? Think Charlie has a loader too??? How about others, care to chime in?
 
Mike you can run the pump off the flywheel pulley but you might need to make a custom one. With this setup you can still use a tiller or snow thrower. Although when you snow throw you have to run with the loader in the up position.

https://www.ihcubcadet.com/forum/messages/106/232999.html?1322201329#POST181957

With these tractors you can run out of hydraulic power. Either the pump doesn't have enough power or the tractor. My one arm loader has a 2.5 dia x 10 stroke main cylinder with a 2.5 gallon per minute pump. To see my one arm tractor just search for one arm loader.
 
Mike Patterson


Mike ,you can see in the first picture I posted behind the bucket the bracket where the pump is mounted under the tractors pto. Another way to add a pump is to use the stub end that comes through the hydro pump ; just and a stub shaft to the hyd pump and have your loader pump running off the hydro shaft.

My loader could be make to quick connect , well it would take about 15 minutes to remove it or install it.If I slid the pins out of the cylinders and removed the top tower bolts i would be left with only the hydraulic lies and quick connects could be added to do that. The only thing left would be the pump bracket and that has two bolts
on each side.

I would rather just leave the loader all set up and have a tiller tractor and a blade tractor and a mower tractor . You Know it is hard to just have ONE Cub cadet lol.
 
MIKE - Not sure who that 982 & loader belonged to but that was at PD #1 if I remember correctly. Looked every bit as good in person as it looks in the picture. I really like the self-leveling bucket feature too. You run a loader with that once and you'll ALWAYS want that. Maybe Kraig will be able to add a name to the pic.

MATT G. mounted a loader to a CC a couple years ago. He went to great lengths mounting it to several places along each frame rail to distribute load & stress to prevent metal fatigue and cracking. Think it was on a WF too. But with more mounting points the idea of a quick attach/detach is just that much harder. I don't think there's enough room on a 982 with a mid-mount mower to install a loader, but I'm sure somebody has done it, just not sure how easily the mower or loader would be to take off.

Generally most people are like Don T, build a dedicated loader tractor.

I have two full size loaders, one on a Super H FARMALL and the other is on an M, both tractors have live hyd, so I don't really have a need for a third smaller loader. I DID mount a small roller pump on a home-made quick-attach bracket so I can run my large sprayer. I had a small jack shaft supported on sealed self-aligning bearings that runs off the frt PTO and used a Love-Joy coupling to drive the roller pump. Same bracket, jack shaft & coupling could just as easily run a hyd pump. It would be in the same location as the pump on Don's loader tractor, just a bit further forward because of the jack shaft, bearing, and coupler.
 
Ok Terry, I'll bite, why you have 3 valves on your tractor and only 2 cylinders to operate for the loader?

Where are you guys getting your cylinders from? One of the suppliers you have already mentioned? Just curious, why are most loaders on these tractors have the bottom cylinders inverted? I was always taught that when you mount a hydralic cylinder, the base is mounted to the part that does not move. The cylinder rod itself moves, so it goes on (in this case) the arm of the loader that moves.
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In Don's pictures, the bottom picture seems "RIGHT" to me, the onese up above it the lower cylinders are mount "BACKWARDS" in my pea brain head? Am I wrong or does it matter? It just looks funny to me to see the cylinder rod mounted to the base of the tower and it shoving the loader up into the air?

Anyone ever come up with the "minimum" size of box steel needed to build a loader with for these tractors? I see some of the smaller Danco loaders use channel to make their loader arms with, this better or worse for strength?

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I guess my biggest job I have "planned" for the loader if it was to ever happen would be to move top soil, scrap the driveway when slushy or really wet snow, move stuff around in the garden, move small quantities of fire wood for those lazy days when I don't want to hook up the trailer, etc. We all know we can't use them like a bull dozer and they do have their limits, but like most things, we sometimes push it. I guess if we all think back, how many times have we "over loaded" one of our IH trailers? YEP! I have done it and it would have been fine if I hadn't hit that big hole I just dug the rock out of and well, now I wouldn't have a crack around the bolt in the bed of my #4 trailer if I had just loaded what I should have on it.
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I guess, those of you who have a loader on your cub - would you go without it now that you have one? I doubt it.
 
Mike,
Search for one arm loader using and match all words.

Also search for grapple
Also search for front hoe and match all words.
of coarse you could always search for tcbusch and select name of authors.
 
Mike Patterson

I think I bought a heavier cylinder than I needed for my loader . I think each one is rated over 3000 lbs. The bigger the cylinder the more fluid is need to move the cylinder . So when lifting the bucket and curling the buck both of these actions will be slowed down. I think a smaller cylinder would not give me this. I would have a quicker more responsive loader if I would have bought small bore cylinders. I really don`t think it matters witch way they are mounted to push or pull
and I think it has more to do with locating the hyd lines that feed the cylinders . I just read your post and notice from the before the lines were made over to have them look neater that they changed the mounting on the lift cylinders. I just never notice that till now .The shop that did the lines told me I should have bought smaller bore cylinders for the weight that my loader was designed and that I don`t need the 3000 lb per cylinder that I have now.I have given some thought to Change out the two that control the bucket so I will have a faster lift and bucket movement. I see now that a smaller bore cylinder will require less fluid to move. I do have one question
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on the loaders with auto level ! when I move my loader to soil to pick it up I curl the bucket as I lift the arms so The soil can fall into the bucket. How is that done with the auto level loader ??? Also The Original with the danko ; there is no cylinder on the bucket
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. so is there no bucket control at all ?
 
We all know that loaders rule. Sometimes I wish I had a bigger one, sometimes a smaller one would be handy. However, the speed of the bucket has become a moot point to me. When it's cold it takes awhile for Lucy's hydraulics to warm up. When it's warm, the bucket/lift action can still seem slow IF YOU'RE IN A HURRY. To me, it's quality seat time. Now that I'm getting Social Security (got an 11 $ raise starting this month) and am helping out with a mother with dementia, time doesn't mean as much as it used to. So: While that loader may seem slow, there's advantages. However: I've got to admit that without the grader blade on the back it's hard to not be able to do something not only in forward, but in reverse, too.
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Don T,

The "self leveling" can be over rid with your leavers, if you choose to roll the bucket all the way back before lifting you can. Not postivie how the valve works, but I know on the larger tractors you can do what you want with the loader, if you just raise it without rolling the bucket, you will have it auto leveling for you. They are okay of a feature, but I personally like the manual idea, makes it easier if your lifting equipment your bucket isn't moving in a direction you do not want it to. Just my 2 cents.
The Danco loader I posted picture of does have a a manual "trip" bucket. Thats old technology! I remember my Grandpa's Massey 35 tractor having that on the loader. Only problem with that is once you trip the bucket you had to lower the loader to the ground in order to "reset" the bucket to be held in the up position until you wanted to trip it again. See the flat, white handle at the back of the hood on the left side, just next to where the arm pins to the verticle post, that's the "trip" handle.

Terry,
Will look at your post, sure it has a lot of useful info in it.

Well, the job the neighbour did for me with his loader turned out good. With all the warm weather we had on the weekend, I have no ice in my drive except where he did not scrap! Big selling feature!!
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Think the wife would buy it??
 
DON, MIKE - On the self-leveling, not "Auto-leveling" like Tom Welborn has on his 982's loader, when you set the bucket flat, or dumped, or in whatever postion or angle, as you raise or lower the loader arms the bucket stays at that same angle even though the loader arms change angle as they are raised/lowered. If the bottom of the bucket is flat on the ground when lowered, it's still flat when fully raised.

DO NOT discount that advantage. Obviously you guys have never had a partial bucket of wet sloppy manure dumped on the hood & grill of your loader tractor right in front of you sitting on the seat, or a partial bucket of large crushed rock, because you tipped the bucket all the way back when you loaded it on the ground and as you raised it the bucket continued to tilt back to the point the material in the bucket fell out the back side or "TOP" of the bucket that is now flat and horizontal and would be considered the BACK. As you can see on Tom's loader, it adds some complexity and of course cost, but if you're going to be loading tall trucks, carts, wagons, etc it's a REQUIREMENT IMO. And since these CC loaders by design are low to the ground most of your loading jobs would be relatively high. Yes, you can accomplish the same thing with the bucket control valve but the self-leveling is MUCH smoother, and always works and allows you to use the control valve hand for something else like steering or speed/direction control.

DON - You're correct, large bore cyinders make more force and operate slower, smaller cylinders make less force and operate quicker. One of the most important features of a loader is the amount of "Break-out force" it generates when lifting a load off the ground. The geometry of the loader is working against you there unless you mount the back end of the lift arm cylinders as low as possible and mount the end attached to the arms as high and close to the bucket as possible. As the loader arms raise, the geometry changes and reduces the amount of lift force gradually, but then you don't want to carry heavy loads very high anyhow. That's a good way to set your tractor & loader on it's side.

Both my loaders on my FARMALL's are the manual trip bucket style like that Danco. The loader on the Super H is a Ford loader Dad bought as junk and modified to mount on the Super H similar to an IH 2000 or 2001 loader, quick attach/detach in about five minutes. The problem with the old FARMALL's is their hyd system only holds six quarts of oil and by the time you extend two 2-1/2" x 30 inch lift arm cylinders there's NO OIL left in the system to run any bucket cylinders. The loader on the Super H was even modified to have a bucket cylinder decades ago before Dad bought it and either he removed it or the prior owner did, you can see where the cylinder attachments were welded to the frame. But since I learned to run the Stan-Hoist loader on the M about fifty years ago I can normally make a trip bucket loader do anything I want. Having caught a face full of sloppy manure a time or two when loading manure I learned to set the bucket down on the side of the spreader and trip it, then raise the bucket a bit so it angled more and emptied, then back up and lower the bucket or arms and re-latch the bucket before backing away from the spreader. Saved a L-O-T of time, and the old JD spreader was built like a battleship and handled the weight of the bucket fine.

The neighbor I worked for had a Case 420 Construction King loader which was a good little loader, full hydraulic, but the Case 530 Construction King TLB I ran for the township was a Cadillac compared to anything I even ran. When loading the sand/chip spreader truck it was either 5 or 6 buckets was 22,000+#, I weighted a load once. And I could load that truck in two minutes. It had a forward/reverse shuttle shift and a torque converter I could shift into lock-up as required, was great for crowding the pile to get a heaping bucket every time. I set the hand throttle about half throttle and used the foot throttle for everything else.
 
Dennis Frisk

I bought 2" x 30" cylinder for the loader , so all the cylinders are the same size. I think some day I will get two smaller sized bore cylinders for the bucket control. I think by doing that I will get a quicker response on the loader when using both lift and bucket control . I don`t think I need the power that these cylinders put out for my application . I saw a 2 ton truck with a wooden box dump some ground a few days ago and he had two of the same size cylinders I`am using to dump his load. His truck had no problems with those cylinders dumping. So smaller bore cylinders will be bought someday. I have never dropped anything on the hood of my 129 loader " YET" . I drive up with a full bucket to my trailer and lift the arms and drop the bucket at the same time to control the dump. I like the way it works because I can control the amount I dump . spreading top soil is much better with this amount of control. I Never drive around with a full bucket with the loader in a raised position. Even with all the weight I have on the back of the loader I know they can fall over very easily. when I fill the bucket and tip the bucket back I drive with it about a foot of the ground . I did buy the float for the lift on the controls and do use that function a lot. Now that I have the lines some where as neat as I wanted and have the pump pulley repaired I find the loader is much better to use.I don`t use my Cub and trailer as much now that the loader is repaired . They come in real handy ,for sure.
 
DON - remember that by increasing pressure from 1000 PSI to 1500 you increase the force 50%, and from 1500 to 2000PSI another 33%. When going to smaller diameter cylinders you may not have as much force as you're used to.

The construction equipment SON has been building the last 2-1/2 yrs can have up to SEVENTEEN hyd. circuits to run cylinders. It's hyd pump is rated 50 GPM @ 2750 PSI. To put that into perspective, the on-board hyd on the hydro CC's makes 700-800 PSI maximum, and I think the SGT's went a bit higher, 900-950PSI. Higher pressure packs a WHOLE lot of force in a tiny package.

There's other factors to keep in mind when designing hydraulics. Example, a fully extended cylinder is not NEAR as strong as a collapsed or half extended cylinder, and the farther you extend it towards fully extended it keeps getting weaker. That's why Dad was able to get the loader for my Super H so cheap, the right side lift cylinder buckled. Likewise, smaller diameter cylinders are weaker, more prone to buckling than larger diameter cylinders.

Your statement before about the rod end of a cylinder being mounted on the lower rear frame pivot end or on the lift arm end of the cylinder is correct, a cylinder pushs the same force either way, however a 2-way cylinder will not pull quite as much as it will push because of the slightly smaller amount of "working" hyd fluid it can use.
 
Dennis Frisk

I really enjoy your posts and well I think I had better check out the pump I have and see what it has for max pressure; Then I can set up the controls for more pressure. I think I have it set at 1200 lbs now .
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Under edit I see 1200 psi is the max for my pump. I will see what the relief valve is set at now to see if the cylinders are getting 1200 psi.
 
This looks like a good place for this, so I'll jump on an existing thread.

I'm back working on an off again on again loader project that is going on a 129. It's a Johnson loader, that I think was on a bigger AC tractor (it's wider than the Model 14 I had before)

Anyway, the sub frame is done and now I need to work on a pump mount.
I have a Haldex pump much like Don T's. I've looked at every picture that I can find off the Net, but I'd love so see some more. Before I break out the big blue glue gun.

I kicked around mounting it off the back of the hydro, but I think I'll stick with a mule drive type mount or flywheel side.
I recall some of the Johnson loaders also drove the pump on the flywheel side of the motor. That would be nice to free up the PTO. Anyone know what size pulley or how the OEM did that style.
 

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