wchockensmith
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- walter c. hockensmith
can Hytran be used in the hydro on an AC 312 H
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Hytran
- Thread starter wchockensmith
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Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
WALTER - WELCOME TO THE FORUM! First question I have to ask about your Allis-Chalmers, is What's the manual say is supposed to be used?
If it's SAE 30W motor oil, or a hydraulic/transmission fluid. or Auto. trans fluid, then I'm inclined to say it would be O-K. But somebody with a Simplicity/Allis hydro would be a better person to respond. Do You happen to know if the hydro unit is a Sundstrand model 15U ? If so, Marlin Homrighausen who posts here frequently actually works for Sundstrand and could ask his tech people.
If it's SAE 30W motor oil, or a hydraulic/transmission fluid. or Auto. trans fluid, then I'm inclined to say it would be O-K. But somebody with a Simplicity/Allis hydro would be a better person to respond. Do You happen to know if the hydro unit is a Sundstrand model 15U ? If so, Marlin Homrighausen who posts here frequently actually works for Sundstrand and could ask his tech people.
wchockensmith
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i think the hydro is a vickers i cant firnd near the info on it like i could for the original from the members on here and the ac site charges $10.00 a year.thanks for the info.their manual dosent speel out things like the IH manuals do
Walter, WELCOME!
I have a 1973 vintage, Allis Chalmers 620, it's a BIG garden tractor, see photo below. The recommended hydrostatic transmission fluid is Type A, Type F or Dexron automatic transmission fluid. Not sure if that's what your AC requires but I thought I mention it. I forget what brand the hydro pump is I'd have to check my service manual to find that out and it's at home in the file cabinet.
I have a 1973 vintage, Allis Chalmers 620, it's a BIG garden tractor, see photo below. The recommended hydrostatic transmission fluid is Type A, Type F or Dexron automatic transmission fluid. Not sure if that's what your AC requires but I thought I mention it. I forget what brand the hydro pump is I'd have to check my service manual to find that out and it's at home in the file cabinet.
mhomrighausen
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Walter H. Welcome!!! I've been home the past two days with a flu bug. Not fun stuff. Anyway.... I'll check tomorrow with a couple of good people at work about what type fluid to use.
For now this site Simple Tractors covers some of the topic on proper fluids. Pretty interesting reading. I do know that TYPE F is the recommended ATF in the 15u manual.
wchockensmith
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thanks for all the info..
mhomrighausen
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Walter H. It's somewhat complicated for me to write what info I received today on the hows and whys that one manufacturer recommends one type of fluid and another recommends another. Page 12 CLICK HERE gives the Sauer Danfoss fluid recommendations. This should help you decide what to use. Remember though that Allis Chalmers recommended the type of fluid that the manufacturer of that particular type of pump recommended to them.
bmcmeen
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Hmmm...
When I get home tonight I'll check my Simplicity service manual. I remember that it shows both the Sunstrand we all know and love as well as a Vickers. Perhaps there's some fluid info in there.
I suppose that if Simplicity recommended the same fluid for both units, then one might A$$ume that one could use Hytran in both units...
EDIT - one can actually read posts without paying on Simple Tractors. Try this chart - it says Dexron:
http://simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22258
When I get home tonight I'll check my Simplicity service manual. I remember that it shows both the Sunstrand we all know and love as well as a Vickers. Perhaps there's some fluid info in there.
I suppose that if Simplicity recommended the same fluid for both units, then one might A$$ume that one could use Hytran in both units...
EDIT - one can actually read posts without paying on Simple Tractors. Try this chart - it says Dexron:
http://simpletractors.com/club2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22258
mhomrighausen
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Bryan M. Good find on the chart.
When I said that it is complicated trying to explain all the information that was explained to me I am not joking. Here is the difference between Dexron Automatic Transmission and Type F. Remember that Type F is a 15U Series recommended fluid. Type F doesn't have friction modifiers like Dexron does. Okay.... now here is where it gets interesting trying to explain this "A$$ume that one could use HyTran in both units." Naturally Allis Chalmers isn't going to recommend using a competitor's fluids. Also Vickers has their reasons for recommending the types of fluids they do. To make this simple... Basically Vickers is saying to use Dexron because it has friction modifiers and components that will work best on their product. I am not that familar with HyTran to know if they have friction modifiers the same as Dexron or not or if HyTran is better than Dexron. By using another product other than the manufacturer's suggested is opening up the chance down the road (long or short term) to cause damage or shorten a product's normal lifespan. Not all products contain the same ingredients. AND we must remember that the majority of those here think that the ONLY fluid to put in the hydrostaic Cub Cadet transmission is either HyTran or HyTran ultra. Funny thing though is the same 15U is installed with only the trunion arm being the difference in several other competitors equipment and THEY think their product is better than HyTran. It boils down to this..... You could actually use HyTran in the Vickers system only if it doesn't contain the same composition characteristics as the Dexron then there is potential to cause damage to the internal parts of the Vickers system. We could get into the old, "What is the BEST oil/fluid to use.... " in a big hurry here. I sure don't want to start that. Now I am going to have to ask the question at work if Dexron is an acceptable fluid. THAT may take awhile to get an answer. The one person that could direct me the quickest to someone that could help is presently off on medical leave.
When I said that it is complicated trying to explain all the information that was explained to me I am not joking. Here is the difference between Dexron Automatic Transmission and Type F. Remember that Type F is a 15U Series recommended fluid. Type F doesn't have friction modifiers like Dexron does. Okay.... now here is where it gets interesting trying to explain this "A$$ume that one could use HyTran in both units." Naturally Allis Chalmers isn't going to recommend using a competitor's fluids. Also Vickers has their reasons for recommending the types of fluids they do. To make this simple... Basically Vickers is saying to use Dexron because it has friction modifiers and components that will work best on their product. I am not that familar with HyTran to know if they have friction modifiers the same as Dexron or not or if HyTran is better than Dexron. By using another product other than the manufacturer's suggested is opening up the chance down the road (long or short term) to cause damage or shorten a product's normal lifespan. Not all products contain the same ingredients. AND we must remember that the majority of those here think that the ONLY fluid to put in the hydrostaic Cub Cadet transmission is either HyTran or HyTran ultra. Funny thing though is the same 15U is installed with only the trunion arm being the difference in several other competitors equipment and THEY think their product is better than HyTran. It boils down to this..... You could actually use HyTran in the Vickers system only if it doesn't contain the same composition characteristics as the Dexron then there is potential to cause damage to the internal parts of the Vickers system. We could get into the old, "What is the BEST oil/fluid to use.... " in a big hurry here. I sure don't want to start that. Now I am going to have to ask the question at work if Dexron is an acceptable fluid. THAT may take awhile to get an answer. The one person that could direct me the quickest to someone that could help is presently off on medical leave.
BRYAN, MARLIN - To add some info about Hy-Tran, the newer Ultra version of Hy-Tran does have friction modifiers in it since most tractors now have wet clutch powershift transmissions since the 5X88 series were released in '81. I would have no idea what their formulation would be or how they would compare to Dextron or type F ATF.
There was an interim Hy-Tran years ago, think it was called Hy-Tran PLUS, but I don't know what the difference was between the original Hy-Tran and the newer Ultra formula. Been a while since I was there but maybe Viscosity Oil's website would have more details, but not sure how technical it would be.
I have never heard anything bad about Hy-Tran, some people at the RPM forum think it's a little light-bodied for highly loaded gears like the final drives in high HP tractors used on heavy draft loads for extended periods of time. But it works fine for today's hydraulic systems. To combat the heat issue many people over-fill the rearends of high HP tractors.
I know Allis used to separate their different drivetrain components as far as types of oils used. They had wet clutches as far back as the 1950's with their hand clutch and later "Power Director". And with their final drives being in the drop housings at each rear wheel on most models each type of gearing got the best oil for the application. I'm sure Allis also had their own transmission & hyd. fluid similar to Hy-Tran but I don;t know what it was called, but My Buddy would know. I'll ask him next time we talk.
There was an interim Hy-Tran years ago, think it was called Hy-Tran PLUS, but I don't know what the difference was between the original Hy-Tran and the newer Ultra formula. Been a while since I was there but maybe Viscosity Oil's website would have more details, but not sure how technical it would be.
I have never heard anything bad about Hy-Tran, some people at the RPM forum think it's a little light-bodied for highly loaded gears like the final drives in high HP tractors used on heavy draft loads for extended periods of time. But it works fine for today's hydraulic systems. To combat the heat issue many people over-fill the rearends of high HP tractors.
I know Allis used to separate their different drivetrain components as far as types of oils used. They had wet clutches as far back as the 1950's with their hand clutch and later "Power Director". And with their final drives being in the drop housings at each rear wheel on most models each type of gearing got the best oil for the application. I'm sure Allis also had their own transmission & hyd. fluid similar to Hy-Tran but I don;t know what it was called, but My Buddy would know. I'll ask him next time we talk.
mhomrighausen
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Dennis F. I remember the HyTran PLUS only like you it is a vague memory. And since it was a short term product the containers shold be collectors items one day. So, is it better to now go to the newer fluids and forgo the older technology? This is similar to the cork versus neopreme gaskets on the 15U locating on the transmission housing discussion. Technology has definitely advanced in the almost fifty years since introduction of the hydrostatic propelled garden tractors. And yet cork like the different fluids is still used in some applications.
This is great to have a little discussion about the correct fluids to use in the hydrostatic systems in our garden tractors. I've always admired yours and Bryan M.'s knowledge and skills for finding things and posting them to share with others. And I've always wondered just what the Anti-Wear Hydraulic Oil truly is that is listed as a suitable oil for the 15 Series systems. If someone wants to review the chart they can go to my Sept. 16, 2010 @ 5:02 p.m. posting and click on the Sauer Danfoss Service Manual.
Kraig M. Here are a couple of interesting talks about the difference between Type A and Type F fluids. You posted that they are two of the three recommended for use in your AC 620. I'm posting this because I remember hearing that one shouldn't mix the two together. Homeownershub... CarKB ... and finally Valvoline.
This brings up the question of since there is a difference between the two types with one having the friction modifiers and the other doesn't therefore is Allis Chalmers contradicting themselves with their recommendations?
This is great to have a little discussion about the correct fluids to use in the hydrostatic systems in our garden tractors. I've always admired yours and Bryan M.'s knowledge and skills for finding things and posting them to share with others. And I've always wondered just what the Anti-Wear Hydraulic Oil truly is that is listed as a suitable oil for the 15 Series systems. If someone wants to review the chart they can go to my Sept. 16, 2010 @ 5:02 p.m. posting and click on the Sauer Danfoss Service Manual.
Kraig M. Here are a couple of interesting talks about the difference between Type A and Type F fluids. You posted that they are two of the three recommended for use in your AC 620. I'm posting this because I remember hearing that one shouldn't mix the two together. Homeownershub... CarKB ... and finally Valvoline.
This brings up the question of since there is a difference between the two types with one having the friction modifiers and the other doesn't therefore is Allis Chalmers contradicting themselves with their recommendations?
MARLIN - I talked to my Allis collector Buddy. Allis calls their hyd/trans fluid 82? (three digit number, something like 824 or 825 Fluid. Not as catchy as Hy-Tran,
I think my Buddy's comment is very good too, "Whatever you use, I wouldn't mix one type with another, flush it and refill with only one type."
It's amazing what all finds it's way into engine or transmission oil. Part of the fuel mixture out R/C cars ran on was castor bean oil, and a few percent synthetic oils, 30% nitromethane, and the rest alcohol. I know the old Ford Traction-Loc friction modifier additive that actually worked contained some ingredient from whale's reproductive organs. Needless to say the newer version does not.
I think my Buddy's comment is very good too, "Whatever you use, I wouldn't mix one type with another, flush it and refill with only one type."
It's amazing what all finds it's way into engine or transmission oil. Part of the fuel mixture out R/C cars ran on was castor bean oil, and a few percent synthetic oils, 30% nitromethane, and the rest alcohol. I know the old Ford Traction-Loc friction modifier additive that actually worked contained some ingredient from whale's reproductive organs. Needless to say the newer version does not.
mhomrighausen
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Dennis F. The whale reproduction organ's system reminded me of the very real conversation that my junior and senior year high school band directors and I had about the best valve oil for cornets and trumpets. Both were dead serious when they said that same thing. I agree with what your friend says about NOT mixing different types of oils. I got to thinking about the HyTran PLUS and the origins of it. When CASE and International Harvester merged there was a LOT of discussion on which oil would become the standard since dealers didn't want to have to carry BOTH CASE and International Harvester oils and if a farmer had both brands could they use just one, etc. You probably remember the "fears" of some farmers not wanting to contaminate their hydraulic systems by using another farmer's hydraulic equipment because the neighbor had green, yellow, red/gray, etc. and each brand had their own type of oil. The HyTran Plus was the very first attempt to bring into one family both lines of tractors/equipment. Since the IH tractors were no longer being produced farmers purchasing a new white CASE (which then soon was rebadged/painted IH red and still a CASE tractor) while keeping their IH tractors. This helped solve just another problem that arose when the two companies merged. Like the one dealer said when Tenneco announced the newly formed CASEIH company equipment would be painted the International Harvester red colors; "That news just solved 90% of my sales questions." I believe the paint color change took place on January 1, 1985. I haven't been able to find much more than just my memory on information about HyTran PLUS. (Maybe someday I should write down some of this information that is inside this pea brain of mine. Not that anyone would really want to know any of it.)
When the first Magnum and new line of CASEIH tractors finally arrived it wasn't so much the new transmission that farmers were worried about. After all.... it was just the improved version of the 50 series IH transmissions. Farmers were upset of how CASEIH had simply used some IH castings and technology and tried to say that CASE had developed them. However, I remember one of the biggest talked about items was how the new Magnums had CASE developed engines and how farmers were worried they wouldn't perform as well as the longwithstanding IH engines had. Not so much with the utility line of tractors.
Right now it is a very chilly rainy day and not a good time to be outside working on the Cubbies.
When the first Magnum and new line of CASEIH tractors finally arrived it wasn't so much the new transmission that farmers were worried about. After all.... it was just the improved version of the 50 series IH transmissions. Farmers were upset of how CASEIH had simply used some IH castings and technology and tried to say that CASE had developed them. However, I remember one of the biggest talked about items was how the new Magnums had CASE developed engines and how farmers were worried they wouldn't perform as well as the longwithstanding IH engines had. Not so much with the utility line of tractors.
Right now it is a very chilly rainy day and not a good time to be outside working on the Cubbies.
wchockensmith
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- walter c. hockensmith
what should i use to flush the hydro system?
and thanks again to all you guys for the info it is greatly apreciated
WCH
and thanks again to all you guys for the info it is greatly apreciated
WCH
WCH - I'm not that familiar with the design of the Allis 312H rearend. If there's some sort of inspection cover, like the rear cover on the hydro CC's, you should be able to remove the cover and wipe down the insides with rags/towels and solvent to get almost all the old oil out.
But if there's no ready access to the oil wetted parts then maybe fill with the oil you plan to use, this case Hy-Tran, run the tractor for a while, half hour to an hour of light duty, enough to circulate all over inside the transmission but not create much load on the components. Then drain & refill with fresh Hy-Tran. In gallon jugs, last I knew Hy-Tran was about $7/gal., you don't want to waste it I know. Maybe only add enough at first fill to get to the "Add" line on the dipstick or ???.
But if there's no ready access to the oil wetted parts then maybe fill with the oil you plan to use, this case Hy-Tran, run the tractor for a while, half hour to an hour of light duty, enough to circulate all over inside the transmission but not create much load on the components. Then drain & refill with fresh Hy-Tran. In gallon jugs, last I knew Hy-Tran was about $7/gal., you don't want to waste it I know. Maybe only add enough at first fill to get to the "Add" line on the dipstick or ???.
mhomrighausen
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WCH. CLICK HERE... NOTE part #17 in the bottom coner between parts #16 and 17 appears to be a drain plug. You should be able to find the fill hole and plug. Not knowing just how clean or the conditiin of your present oil here is my suggestion. Okay..... this is purely what I would do to flush the system if the rearend is really contaminated. Go out and buy some reasonably (okay cheap) generic Dexron fluid or transdraulic fluid. Purchase enough for say to to three flushings of the system. I can't remember if this system has oil filters or not. If it does purchase three or four of them.
NOW....
Step #1. Run the tractor if desired to sufficiently warm the oil inside the transmission.
Step #2. Shut off the tractor and drain the present oil, remove old filter. Let drain until the oil becomes drops instead of a stream. Insert drain plug and refill to full and replace old filter with new.
Step #3. Repeat Steps #1 and 2 however make sure to run the tractor to get the oil inside the pump/motor until you are satisfied the system has been thoroughly cleaned.
Step #4. NOW if you want to rid your system of the cheaper priced oil and put the "Good Stuff" (that being whatever you've decided to run inside the system then do a complete once flush with the (again) "Good Stuff". Drain the oil and change the filter and then install a new filter and fresh "Good Stuff" and you should be ready to roll.
Should you decide upon using HyTran or HyTran Ultra is purely up to you. If you should decide to use the recommended Dexron is again your choice. BTW.... I found the transmission schematic by doing a GOOGLE search for "engineers drawing of an Allis Chalmers B112h Hydrostatic Transmission".
Hope this helps..
NOW....
Step #1. Run the tractor if desired to sufficiently warm the oil inside the transmission.
Step #2. Shut off the tractor and drain the present oil, remove old filter. Let drain until the oil becomes drops instead of a stream. Insert drain plug and refill to full and replace old filter with new.
Step #3. Repeat Steps #1 and 2 however make sure to run the tractor to get the oil inside the pump/motor until you are satisfied the system has been thoroughly cleaned.
Step #4. NOW if you want to rid your system of the cheaper priced oil and put the "Good Stuff" (that being whatever you've decided to run inside the system then do a complete once flush with the (again) "Good Stuff". Drain the oil and change the filter and then install a new filter and fresh "Good Stuff" and you should be ready to roll.
Should you decide upon using HyTran or HyTran Ultra is purely up to you. If you should decide to use the recommended Dexron is again your choice. BTW.... I found the transmission schematic by doing a GOOGLE search for "engineers drawing of an Allis Chalmers B112h Hydrostatic Transmission".
Hope this helps..
Hummm,,,
The oil was used as a lubricant and in ointments and cosmetics. An additional 500 gallons (1,900 liters) of oil could be harvested from the spermaceti organ in a single whale’s huge head. This was especially valuable since it was fine enough to be used to lubricate delicate machinery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale
The oil was used as a lubricant and in ointments and cosmetics. An additional 500 gallons (1,900 liters) of oil could be harvested from the spermaceti organ in a single whale’s huge head. This was especially valuable since it was fine enough to be used to lubricate delicate machinery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_whale
mgonitzke
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Man, in the future I should be more careful about reading the off-topic threads while I'm eating...
