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Archive through September 05, 2012

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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Matt and all - I've been running 87 octane, and I guess it all has ethanol around here, and my tractor has seemed to run fine. I'm only at about 400-500ft alltitude anyway. I was more worried about causing a valve problem. I'll probably just stay with the 87. It's unleaded of course.
 
Dan H - not sure which electric PTO was used on the 682 but I believe you might just be able to replace just the bearing. I replaced just the bearing in a few of the electric PTOs on the Quiet Line models (1450 and 1650). Not a hole lot involved. Hopefully one of the guys on here will chime in and indicate if the units are similar. I'd recommend having the tractor service manual and follow instructions for removal. Probably just a bolt with a large washer and spacer on the end of the crankshaft that you remove and the PTO assembly should slide off. If the crankshaft is rusted I'd clean it up before sliding it off. Never had one that didn't just slide off but follow the manual details. Once you remove the PTO assembly from the tractor and you'll see the part the bearing is in. If it's like the earlier models there's a large spring/c-clip you have to remove and then you can use a puller or press to remove the bearing. You'll have to look at the bearing markings to find a replacement. I generally always went to NAPA for that type stuff. When I lived in CT one of the Cub dealers was also a NAPA store so it made it easy. Installing the bearing will be reverse of how you removed it. To re-install the PTO assembly you need to follow the service manual instructions. You'll have to set the gap on the clutch contact points, etc.
 
Dan H. & Harry:
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Be careful removing the PTO on the 682. I discovered on an M18 that came out of an 1864 that the pulley/PTO DID NOT slide off the end of the crank as it had on my B&S 16 HP twin cylinder or the M18 that came out of the Off-Topic tractor. I had to remove four bolts from the front cover and the muffler to separate the PTO from the engine. This was AFTER I had tried (and almost succeeded) to get the pulley off with a puller.

The difference between the two PTO styles is that the genuine Cub Cadet (from Borg-Warner?) used the engine block as the ground and therefore used only a single wire from the PTO switch to the PTO itself, there was no ground wire connection.

Someone with experience with an originally configured Kohler powered 682 or 782 can chime in, but I'm betting that the PTO is the single wire type. I would be curious to know myself.

PTO that does NOT slide off is on the far right, notice the bolting plate and single wire:
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PTO that slides (easily) off end of crank is on the left, notice the triangular bracket that allows gap adjustment and mates to a "stop" mounted on the engine block which keeps the rear portion of the PTO from spinning --it does not bolt to the block. It also has a two-wire Packard 56 Series connector.

Edit: You can also see the two spacers used with the sliding PTO; there is a spacer in fixed PTO also, but it is trapped between the pulley and the back plate portions. I think there is away to separate the two parts of the fixed PTO as when renewing the friction surface.

Edit 2: As for Dan original issue, the bearing in the center PTO has been replaced. The bearings are peened in, so they can be a bit stubborn to remove, I believe the bearings in the fixed PTO can also be replaced.
 
Harry, Matt,
The method they used to calculate octane changed also, IIRC, back in the 70's. (i think)
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The older kohler manual may not use the (R+M)/2 calulation. IMHO, 89 octane would work, but 87 is all it needs. Any more than that, the gas will not burn completely, especially in a looooow compression flathead.
 
Scott T - Hunting for Oblong Tuits - I think you're right. The Op Manual is Rev 1, dtd 6-74, and states (Research Method). No wonder my 87 has been working ok.

Jeremiah - thanks for the additional info. Hopefully it helps Dan and he can "carefully" replace the bearing.
 
Since you guys are talking about octane , I've been wondering whats the best to run in a k-241? I had a few people tell me to use premium,said its better on the valves.To me,I dont know anything about octane,never had a race car,or any kind a hopped up motor. Untill a few years ago I only put 87 in everything I had except my banshee I had,I dont have a huge yard to mow so if runnin the hightoctane is better I'll keep usin it in my main mower. If you think about it its only what 15-20 cents more / gal. It takes maybe a 1/2 gal to mow my yard.I only get a gal. or maybe gal & half at a time.I try not fillin the 5 gal safety cans full.That way it doesnt sit around more then 2 weeks or so.I dont add anything to it either , no fuel stabalizer or additive.
 
HARRY - The reverse speeds would be .78 MPH in U/D; stock 2.6 MPH in Direct drive,, & 3.85 MPH in O/D. Faster reverse speeds are handy in some situations. Dad's old 4010 JD had three reverse speeds, and even though you couldn't get shifted into it there was a 4th reverse in the transmission, there were four ranges and two synchronized forward and a reverse gear in each range. 3rd reverse was 8.5 MPH which wasn't able to be shifted into on the later 3020/4020's, and a 4th reverse would have been around 14 MPH. 8-1/2 MPH was fine at lower engine speeds, but the 4th reverse would have been just to darned fast for anything! A little work with a hack saw or die grinder and ANY of the later Synchro-Range trans. equipped New Generation 3020/4020's could have the 3rd and even 4th reverse. My Cousin modified his 4020-D for the 3rd rev.


PAUL - Yes, the steering on the '61/'63 CC's was different than the later tractors, but really not any better or worse when well worn. The brakes however were ALWAYS one wheel, where at least with the later internal disk brake you did have two wheel braking some or most of the time. The external dual disk brakes were the right way to go. Just wished IH would have put individual brakes on more models than just the SGT's.

I think the best use of the 12 MPH high gear would be when putting around the yard. A scene at RPRU down in Penfield about ten yrs ago of Tom H on Mein Kub running down the pulling track stirring up dust on his way to the CC Plowing demonstration somes to mind. Shift UP and Throttle DOWN. Run half throttle and still run 6 MPH. I think Tom put a bigger engine pulley on that stock so he had some faster speeds.

Far as the Gas debate.... Like John Underwood said, Kwik-Trip has 91 octane with no ethanol, they call it "Recreational Fuel". And Kwik-Trip has one of the strongest detergent packages of ANY major gas brand in it. I've been using it the last couple years. My little commuter car, which is turbo-charged, Inter-cooled, variable cam timing on both intake & exh. valves, and has knock sensors to pull ignition timing if it senses detonation gets as good of MPG & Performance on it as any 93 octane gasahol. Going to an ethanol blend or 87 octane costs me about 2 MPG fuel economy, which means I'm loosing HP. I don't use MMO, Stabil, or Sea Foam in my gas for my old CC's & Farmall's either, just a splash of 108 octane leaded race gas, either Sunoco or Unocal, whichever the station over by Paul R. gets for the racing season. The blend burns great and doesn't go stale for months, maybe closer to a YEAR or more. I had my old K241 start detonating once years ago right after I rebuilt it. I'd been running it about as hard as it could run for 15-20 minutes and even when I stopped and removed the load it still detonated for about 20-30 seconds at a medium fast idle. A hot spot in the combustion chamber was igniting the fuel/air mixture before the spark ignited it. A Kohler will only last maybe a Minute running with detaonation like that. Burned pistons, blown head gaskets, or a groove torched across the sealing surface of the head is the result.

So when I run my Cubbies hard for 3-4, even six hours straight, it's nice to know they aren't in danger of detonating. I'd rather have a good running engine than pretty paint, but having BOTH is better.
 
SCOTT T. - Sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that high octane gas doesn't burn completely in low compression engines.

Granted it burns slower, but engines that only run 3600 RPM give even high octane gas plenty of time to burn. DON VOGT & I have discussed this many times. His pulling engines make more HP on 87 octane than when running higher octane gas. Next time I see him I'll have to ask him if he's ever dyno'd with even lower octane gas. Be interesting to see the results if he has. But his engines are running about twice the engine speed, only run for seconds at a time, and don't even have cooling fins or blower vanes on the flywheels for cooling. Actually, engines tend to detonate more at lower RPM when running fuel not high enough in octane. The tetra-ethyl lead used to raise octane in leaded gas slows the chemical process that has to occur for the fuel/air mixture to burn. If this chemical reaction occurs too fast due to low octane the mixture can and will spontaneously combust instead of making a nice progressive flame front across the combustion chamber. This rapid burning causes a HUGE pressure spike in the cylinder, which beats the piston tops, rings, even the rod & crank bearings, and the valves, especially the exh valve. Some knowledgeable people have even said part of the noise of detonation is the cylinder head rattling on the block when detonation occurs because of the abusive high pressure. If that's the case, it's a wonder the head gaskets in these Kohlers last as long as they do! The old K241 I ran for 1400 hours always had either leaded premium gas when I could still buy it, or my premium gas/leaded race gas mix in it, and I never replaced the head gasket. I did re-torque the head 2-3 times during the life of that rebuild.

Just like Matt, I don't care what other people run for gas in their CC's, but I run what I do for a reason and I don't consider it a waste of money any more than I do the money I spend on other things like beer.

You study enough about engines, and they are sometimes complex little machines, and other times really simple. They run best, make the most HP & burn the least amount of gas right at the point of detonation. The problems begin when you exceed the detonation point of the fuel you're running. Gets expensive in a hurry. The fact these Kohlers are air cooled, have no temp gauge, and have a combustion chamber with all kinds of nooks & cranny's where stagnant fuel/air mixture sits, and have about three times as much surface area to expose to combustion as a well designed over-head valve style engine makes them not very fuel efficient and very prone to detonation. But the octane of the gas they burn only effects them if the octane is too low. Higher than needed octane has no detrimental effect on them.

Found it interesting about ten years ago when Michael Schumacher was driving the Formula 1 car for Ferrari, Shell Oil made lighter weight engine oil for them, and made a faster burning fuel blend for their 3.0L V10 engines that ran as high as 19,000 RPM. At that time they were making around 850 HP from 183 CID. Now they're making that much HP or more from a 2.4L V8, about 146.4 CID.
 
Dennis - ok now, the cats out of the bag. My hydro will beat your Original in reverse (per the manual mine goes 4mph and the Original 9 speed is 3.85mph tops per your rule calculations).
Thanks for doing the calculations. Hope Charlie makes a note so you can add that additional tag I mentioned.
Hey talking about off topic JD4010's and 20's, when I was young I worked for 2 Irish brothers, one had a 4020D and the other had the 4020 Gas. These 2 guys were always debating. Nice tractors, but I eventually had to quit and work for their cousin who used older Farmalls.
 
If there is a better engineering staff for small engines than Dennis, Harry, and Paul....well, there isn't.....when you add in Tom, Steve B. and Matt to the Mix and Kraig with the the Illustrated Technical information....World Class comes to mind...

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I don't understand ALL of their renderings, but I sure love to read it for reference to what I do understand.

Thank you to everyone who takes the time to post here....you all make this the goto site for Cubs.
 
FWIW - my thoughts on gas and garden tractors and mowers.

If I know I'm going to burn through the gas, like during peak mowing season, I use 89 octane gas. Doesn't matter to me if it has ethanol or not, what's important to me is that it's not setting a long time in the fuel tank or gas can. When I'm buying gas that won't be used for longer periods of time (like for my 1650 which is STILL in pieces ...
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) I try to buy high octane gas - which is the only way in my neck of the woods to get ethanol free gas. The octane is generally 91 and sometimes 92 or 93 depending on the gas station. I use sta-bil in my gas and have recently started using Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas for no real good reason - other than everyone I know gives it high marks, but I kind of like doing things the old way and certainly a lot of old timer mechanics used the stuff. If it's good enough for them, good enough for me....
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BACK TO ASKING QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!

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Regarding forward and reverse speeds on a hydro, my 109 is right speedy in both directions. With a suicide knob on the steering wheel and no forward/reverse detent to stop instant forward/reverse direction changes, I can snap the little 109 around quickly. Nothing like a zero turn, but the potential for fast trimming is there. I just have to get the mind tuned-in so the coordination is there to react quickly enough. I'm getting a nice cut with the 44 inch deck in it's highest position (I try to cut my grass taller than a golf green - unlike my neighbors who do a combination of mowing and tilling with their mowing decks ...
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) What I'm hoping to figure out is how fast I can go with this mower, with speed-up pulley, and still get a great cut. It's been so dry in my neck of the woods, grass has been hard to find to mow in the first place.

We've had some rain this past week and if it dries out, I'll put the 109 to work. If it doesn't dry out, I still got to mow, but will use the sacrifical Cub Cadet ....
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Speaking of fuels (or being that timing can necessitate a change in fuel); I've read on another forum that the standard 20°BTDC/.020" gap setting remains porportional up to around the 30° BTDC timing mark, so that the 30° BTDC setting would gap to .030". This would seem suspect, but would take some tinkering to validate.
 
Dennis,
High octane fuel burns slower, so it will stave off detonation in a higher cylinder pressure environment, such as is gotten with high compression.. The formulation has less volitle aromatics that enable the fuel to stay unlit until the plug ignites it. Putting hi-test in a car that was designed for regular, is a waste of money. It'll run, but the fuel won't release all of it's power, and it'll carbon up valves and piston tops. For it to be beneficial, you need to increase compression, and/or advance the total timing. Now using hi-test on a Kohler with a turbo....
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Chris R,

The cool picture you shared yesterday is really neat. Is there any additional info you can share about it like where did you find it and where was it taken?
 
Here in Iowa, it has been a horrible year for us who mow lawns for $$$. I am glad we finally got some rain two days ago!
 
Adam Johnston
I feel your pain , my new Zero turn just sits in the cargo trailer waiting for the grass to grow. This is the worst year that I can remember for this dry a summer over here.I normally mow twice a week in the dry spell , but not this year. I do kind a like the time I get to ride my Nomad MC .
 
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