David - thank you for responding. I'll just hit em with a little sandpaper and leave well enough for now. I've ruined enough stuff for now! I've been half afraid to mess with these things but after putting one together (new from prior owner) there really doesn't seem to much to them. Getting the apart, as I'm sure you know, is the most challenging part. Thanks again.
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Archive through March 04, 2013
- Thread starter tbdavis
- Start date
Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
I had no problem getting the one on the 73 apart!! Kind of did it on it's own!! Bummer!
Dave S.
Dave S.
David S.
Since we're on PTO's today and it's PTO day here, and your more than welcome to come help do up 6 of each style if you have nothin else to do. Here's what yours should look like before you put it back together.
Since we're on PTO's today and it's PTO day here, and your more than welcome to come help do up 6 of each style if you have nothin else to do. Here's what yours should look like before you put it back together.
Terry D.
I'll throw my method in the deal as well.
Carb cleaner or lacquer thinner and a quick wipe off with a rag, then scuff'um up a little and re-shoot with carb cleaner or lacquer thinner and wipe clean.
I'll throw my method in the deal as well.
Carb cleaner or lacquer thinner and a quick wipe off with a rag, then scuff'um up a little and re-shoot with carb cleaner or lacquer thinner and wipe clean.
Charlie-
What do you use to resurface those pressure plates (if it's not a dark secret)? As I mentioned before I just use a bench belt sander and it does a fairly nice job. I can put the finished plates together and hold them up to light and not see any coming through.
Those you posted look good!
What do you use to resurface those pressure plates (if it's not a dark secret)? As I mentioned before I just use a bench belt sander and it does a fairly nice job. I can put the finished plates together and hold them up to light and not see any coming through.
Those you posted look good!
hydroharry
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- Harry Bursell
Charlie - I think I see a couple pitting spots in the top pic of the clutch. Might want to take it down another .0001. Nice scuffing lines.
(under edit - might just be rust dust instead of pitting)
Bill R - hey, I said before I can't disclose the scoring criteria. I already probably said to much on deductions (and by the way, I'm not a qualified judge nor a member of the Correct Police. I've just been around, and I know some people that know some people).
(under edit - might just be rust dust instead of pitting)
Bill R - hey, I said before I can't disclose the scoring criteria. I already probably said to much on deductions (and by the way, I'm not a qualified judge nor a member of the Correct Police. I've just been around, and I know some people that know some people).
Wayne S.
I true them up on the lathe first, then on the 8" belt sander with 50 grit to make'um just right.
I do at least 5 a week, so I'm gettin pretty good at it.
Hydro Harry,
HUMMPHFFTTTTT!
I true them up on the lathe first, then on the 8" belt sander with 50 grit to make'um just right.
I do at least 5 a week, so I'm gettin pretty good at it.
Hydro Harry,
HUMMPHFFTTTTT!
Got Cha Charlie! And if I was a bunch closer, I'd take Ya up on the job opening!! Been fishin up your way a few times, at Nevis, Crooked Lake.
Think I'll clean mine up same way as the cyl head w/paper and piece of glass for flatness.
Thanks Gain guys!
Dave S.
Think I'll clean mine up same way as the cyl head w/paper and piece of glass for flatness.
Thanks Gain guys!
Dave S.
Ok guys, looks like I've got a little work to do. Had em all smooth and pretty - now I've got to rough em back up! Oh we'll - I'm learning (I think). Also, did hit the disc with sandpaper but will hit em wit a little carb cleaner and do a little more scuffing. If I didn't do anything right at least I didn't lose any parts - YET! Thanks fellas
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Dennis F - the hp design rating of the tranny clutch. I could have sworn that I read it over the weekend in a couple of archives posts while reading about some other stuff - BUT I CAN'T FIND IT!!!!
It went along with why IH only made 12 hp gear drives (in the yellow models) and didn't expand that into 14 and 16 hp versions. For whatever reason, I thought I read that the clutch used in the IH gear drives were designed for 10 hp, even though they used them on the 12hp GD's, but didn't go 14 or 16 because of the design limit of the clutch assy. I gather that the 582 was 16 hp, but don't know if it had the same clutch assy.
Sorry for the confusion.
It went along with why IH only made 12 hp gear drives (in the yellow models) and didn't expand that into 14 and 16 hp versions. For whatever reason, I thought I read that the clutch used in the IH gear drives were designed for 10 hp, even though they used them on the 12hp GD's, but didn't go 14 or 16 because of the design limit of the clutch assy. I gather that the 582 was 16 hp, but don't know if it had the same clutch assy.
Sorry for the confusion.
BILL - There was discussion a year or two ago about WHY IH only built 7 or 8, 10, & 12 HP GD's. And all the higher HP tractors were hydro. But the HP limit is NOT the 4-1/2" dry plate clutch. Yes, it does have a limit to how much torque it will transmit in stock form, but there's other things that will fail in the rearend before you smoke the clutch.
The diff. carrier bearing retainers are a weak spot. The OEM cast iron pieces will crack & break, and usually you'll destroy the ring gear & pinion gear/shaft. The after-market machined billet aluminum retainers solve that issue to well past 70-80 HP. The top sliding gear shaft is prone to twisting once it delivers over 15 HP at it's rated 515 RPM. Now just putting a 15 or more HP engine in a CC doesn't twist the shaft, you have to have ZERO tire slippage under a HARD pull to twist the shaft. And there's after-market solutions to that problem also, that are cheaper than the OEM parts and just a bit more expensive than used OEM parts.
There's ALL types of clutch improvement parts, stiffer pressure springs, aluminum friction plates, twin-disk clutches. The Cub Cadet GD's are actually MUCH harder on the transmission & rearend that ANY Cub Farmall or LoBoy ever was. The CC rearend runs behind a 7:1 reduction gearbox, so a 7 HP Kohler stresses it as much as a FIFTY HP Cub. The Cub transmission runs at engine speed, 1400-1800 RPM, and the reduction is at the ends of the axles. The bearings, gears & shafts don't are how fast they run, just how much torque they have to transmit.
The comment I heard an engineer at FARMALL make over 30 yrs ago was that the rear hole in the 5/8" dia 1018 steel drive shaft, the front hole the coupler attaches to, tends to wallow out in normal use, mowing, towing carts, stopping/starting, etc over an extended time in the 10 HP & up CC's. The 7 & 8 HP tractors seem to run FOREVER with no wear to that hole. The 70 clutch I tore apart Saturday I assume was the factory parts from 1965, and the 1/4" spirol roll pin & drive shaft were fine, as was the driveshaft in my 72 back in 1981 when I got it until 1985 when I dropped the K241 in it. By 1990 I had to replace the driveshaft because of the wear in that hole. And THAT shaft was wore out by 2005 when I dropped the K321 in it. The after-market 4140 pre-hardened alloy steel drive shafts help that issue a L-O-T, but I can't tell you how much since I have about another 10-15 yrs of durability testing to complete. But the real solution is to install a second roll pin into that end of the coupler & driveshaft. It's the ONLY place there's only ONE 1/4" roll pin driving the whole tractor. The rear end of the coupler pins to a machined & carburized 1040/1045 carbon steel pinion shaft, VERY hard & wear resistant on the outside, soft on the inside for shock absorption, and I've NEVER seen one of the pinion shafts wallow the roll pin hole out.
In stock form, a GD CC should be able to run a long time with 20 HP for general use, mowing, pushing snow, blowing snow, towing big carts loaded with lots of weight. The clutch may need a stiffer pressure spring if you weight the tractor up over 1000-1200# and pull it hard. But thanks to the fact the GD CC is the rearend of choice for the Quarter-Scale pullers, whatever you break, there's a better part to replace the broken parts with.
Check out "Garden Tractor Pulling" on U-tube, especially the diesel super-stockers blowing smoke. Regardless of the color on the sheet metal, they're just about ALL GD CC's.
Guess I hang out too much with the garden tractor pullers. What's always funny, is their opinion of what's "Good" is always colored by what works to drag the transfer sled 300+ ft maybe 6-8 times in a day the furthest with a week or two to repair the damage. Me, I want to run my CC's all summer with just adding gas, maybe a little oil & grease, and an oil/filter change or two, maybe a simple adjustment, and NO broken parts.
Another thing to remember, when IH released the CC for production, 1960~1961, they were still smarting from the sting of the 460/560 FARMALL rearend fiasco. You can't blame IH for NOT making a very conservative decision on how much HP was too much in a GD CC. Plus the higher HP CC's would compete directly with the Cub & LoBot tractors. Thing I find interesting, the diff bearing retainers in a hydro are the same parts as in a GD, and I've never heard of anyone breaking a retainer in a hydro, but it's one of the first up-grades pullers do along with the stiffer clutch springs.
The diff. carrier bearing retainers are a weak spot. The OEM cast iron pieces will crack & break, and usually you'll destroy the ring gear & pinion gear/shaft. The after-market machined billet aluminum retainers solve that issue to well past 70-80 HP. The top sliding gear shaft is prone to twisting once it delivers over 15 HP at it's rated 515 RPM. Now just putting a 15 or more HP engine in a CC doesn't twist the shaft, you have to have ZERO tire slippage under a HARD pull to twist the shaft. And there's after-market solutions to that problem also, that are cheaper than the OEM parts and just a bit more expensive than used OEM parts.
There's ALL types of clutch improvement parts, stiffer pressure springs, aluminum friction plates, twin-disk clutches. The Cub Cadet GD's are actually MUCH harder on the transmission & rearend that ANY Cub Farmall or LoBoy ever was. The CC rearend runs behind a 7:1 reduction gearbox, so a 7 HP Kohler stresses it as much as a FIFTY HP Cub. The Cub transmission runs at engine speed, 1400-1800 RPM, and the reduction is at the ends of the axles. The bearings, gears & shafts don't are how fast they run, just how much torque they have to transmit.
The comment I heard an engineer at FARMALL make over 30 yrs ago was that the rear hole in the 5/8" dia 1018 steel drive shaft, the front hole the coupler attaches to, tends to wallow out in normal use, mowing, towing carts, stopping/starting, etc over an extended time in the 10 HP & up CC's. The 7 & 8 HP tractors seem to run FOREVER with no wear to that hole. The 70 clutch I tore apart Saturday I assume was the factory parts from 1965, and the 1/4" spirol roll pin & drive shaft were fine, as was the driveshaft in my 72 back in 1981 when I got it until 1985 when I dropped the K241 in it. By 1990 I had to replace the driveshaft because of the wear in that hole. And THAT shaft was wore out by 2005 when I dropped the K321 in it. The after-market 4140 pre-hardened alloy steel drive shafts help that issue a L-O-T, but I can't tell you how much since I have about another 10-15 yrs of durability testing to complete. But the real solution is to install a second roll pin into that end of the coupler & driveshaft. It's the ONLY place there's only ONE 1/4" roll pin driving the whole tractor. The rear end of the coupler pins to a machined & carburized 1040/1045 carbon steel pinion shaft, VERY hard & wear resistant on the outside, soft on the inside for shock absorption, and I've NEVER seen one of the pinion shafts wallow the roll pin hole out.
In stock form, a GD CC should be able to run a long time with 20 HP for general use, mowing, pushing snow, blowing snow, towing big carts loaded with lots of weight. The clutch may need a stiffer pressure spring if you weight the tractor up over 1000-1200# and pull it hard. But thanks to the fact the GD CC is the rearend of choice for the Quarter-Scale pullers, whatever you break, there's a better part to replace the broken parts with.
Check out "Garden Tractor Pulling" on U-tube, especially the diesel super-stockers blowing smoke. Regardless of the color on the sheet metal, they're just about ALL GD CC's.
Guess I hang out too much with the garden tractor pullers. What's always funny, is their opinion of what's "Good" is always colored by what works to drag the transfer sled 300+ ft maybe 6-8 times in a day the furthest with a week or two to repair the damage. Me, I want to run my CC's all summer with just adding gas, maybe a little oil & grease, and an oil/filter change or two, maybe a simple adjustment, and NO broken parts.
Another thing to remember, when IH released the CC for production, 1960~1961, they were still smarting from the sting of the 460/560 FARMALL rearend fiasco. You can't blame IH for NOT making a very conservative decision on how much HP was too much in a GD CC. Plus the higher HP CC's would compete directly with the Cub & LoBot tractors. Thing I find interesting, the diff bearing retainers in a hydro are the same parts as in a GD, and I've never heard of anyone breaking a retainer in a hydro, but it's one of the first up-grades pullers do along with the stiffer clutch springs.
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Quick question - I know that decarbing an engine is an essential service interval, but how can you minimize the build-up in the first place?
Any tips, tricks, advice would be appreciated.
On another note - Dennis F - thanks much for the clutch/tranny hp info!
Any tips, tricks, advice would be appreciated.
On another note - Dennis F - thanks much for the clutch/tranny hp info!
sblunier
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- Steve Blunier "Mr. Plow" (Central IL)
Gear drives:
Denny has this one right, but I'll add some other observations....
I had a 100 with 6-12 rubber that twisted the top shaft on the trans-axle......it doesn't have to be "high hp", just hooked up HP....
A 582 with a 16hp will use ALL 16 HP when plowing if you are doing it right!!!
If she ain't into the governor you need to plow faster or deeper!!!!
Drawbar height is the BIGGEST killer of ring gear and pinion carriers. It's very hard to roach a RG&P in stock form, but bump the hitch height to 13" and hook it to the sled and all of the overslung weight of the tractor bears down on the carrier as it is stressed to the max torque the engine can provide.....and then the operator jumps around on the seat or the traction side-to-side changes and PING - CRUNCH - OUCH - $$$$$
Denny has this one right, but I'll add some other observations....
I had a 100 with 6-12 rubber that twisted the top shaft on the trans-axle......it doesn't have to be "high hp", just hooked up HP....
A 582 with a 16hp will use ALL 16 HP when plowing if you are doing it right!!!
Drawbar height is the BIGGEST killer of ring gear and pinion carriers. It's very hard to roach a RG&P in stock form, but bump the hitch height to 13" and hook it to the sled and all of the overslung weight of the tractor bears down on the carrier as it is stressed to the max torque the engine can provide.....and then the operator jumps around on the seat or the traction side-to-side changes and PING - CRUNCH - OUCH - $$$$$
hydroharry
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Bill J - boy are you opening the door with that one. Besides the MMO which Don T suggested, it's been discussed that "IH Low Ash Engine Oil" is also good to use. I happen to believe keeping your engine "overly" tuned up also helps. (I always liked checking my timing every month just to make sure it was spot on - I think mostly because when I bought the tractor the engine had been rebuilt due to a hole burnt thru the piston).
jchamberlin
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- Jeremiah Chamberlin
Quoting Steve "Mr. Plow" Blunier: <u>"Denny has this one right</u>, but I'll add some other observations.... "
Now I'm confused: Was Denny ever wrong? (that he knows of)
--Not flaming, just sayin'
--Not flaming, just sayin'
Jeremiah Chamberlin
Well I have to bite on ( Was Denny ever wrong? )
I`am sure he has made a few bobos in his life , a few missed thought or decisions . He should be richer . I can tell that from his posts he did have his fingers in more than one pie . I do enjoy his paragraphs + . I have learned SO much from this site.
Thank you all !
Well I have to bite on ( Was Denny ever wrong? )
I`am sure he has made a few bobos in his life , a few missed thought or decisions . He should be richer . I can tell that from his posts he did have his fingers in more than one pie . I do enjoy his paragraphs + . I have learned SO much from this site.
Thank you all !
