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Archive through April 23, 2013
- Thread starter drglinski
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Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
Brian Hoffman, having never owned a 129 myself, I can only speak from what I've learned from others here. Yes, a 129 will accept a 44a mower deck. From what I have read about others who have that setup they seem to be happy with that setup. It may not have the power to mow through some real thick tall grass but the 12k has plenty of power, IMHO, to get the job done.
hydroharry
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Joel S - I'd like to supplement the info provided by Jeff and Gerry, and assist with further information for ole Don T, on what exactly makes the "Model 169" an extremely desirable CC.
As was mentioned, production records identify 4005 units produced, all in 1974. It is the 2nd lowest production unit of the IH CC models (the model 800 Quiet Line being the lowest production but it was apparently discontinued due to low sales volume). The 1x8/9 series began production in 1972 (if I recall correctly, or maybe late 1971) having the 149 with 14hp as the top of the line unit. The 169 was added to the production line sometime approx. March 1974, and was apparently due to consumer demand for greater horsepower.
The 169 was the 1st IH CC unit to provide 16hp and was primarily equiped with a Kohler K341A 16hp engine with 13 cooling fins on the block. It also appears Kohler was making a casting change to their K341A sometime in 1974 as well since some of the 169's came equiped with a 12 cooling fin block. The 13 cooling fin block did show up in a few early 1650 Quiet Line units as a Model K341AQS but the 12 became the standard block and the 13 production by Kohler seems to have ended in late 74 or early 75.
The 13 cooling fin block actually appears to be more common in the 169 based on Forum member reports of which engine they have. There seems to be no known method to distinguish the 13 fin vs. 12 fin block from the Kohler model, serial number or spec numbers. You have to count the fins to determine which you may have. The 13 fin block is actually a thicker casting, and highly desirable by Pulling enthusiasts since the block can be bored to a full 4" which the 12 fin block cannot (I believe the max bore for a 12 fin is 3 and 7/8").
Also, the Kohler block spec'd to IH CC use is somewhat a rarity since the base is cast differently than the standard Kohler style tall base or even the "eared" base used for a JD unit. So a 13 fin Kohler with the correct IH CC base is going to be very difficult to locate, and may have only been produced by Kohler for use in an IHCC (although I have no actual data on that).
The 169 also appears to have been a hurried addition to the IH product line since later when IH introduced the Quiet Line series (late 1974) the model 1650 with 16hp was advertised in some IH literature as the most powerful Cub Cadet produced by IH (as if the 169 was forgotten).
The 169 was also the first CC to include a Maintenance Minder (more commonly called an Hour Meter and also noted as such in the parts book), which became standard on the Quiet Line series.
With further regard to "rarity" of the Kohler 13 fin block, as Don T points out he had a Bolens with a 13 fin. This is exactly why IH introduced the 169. Most competitors had a 16hp unit and IH had planned a 16hp for the 1650 in the Quiet Line series but hurried the 16hp engine into a model 169 to be competitive.
I must close by saying most of the information I've provided here is supported by some details obtain from IH archives but I don't have the exact references. Paul Bell is a more knowledgeable member on here and may provide any correction as appropriate to my details.
So, all in all, the Model 169 with an original 12 or 13 fin Kohler engine, and having a producion of only 4005 units, and being the only 16hp with a direct mount or hard mount to the tractor frame (the 1650 used rubber ISO-mounts), is quite hard to find in operable or restorable condition these days. I found mine in a junk yard many years ago. Here is a pic I posted before but it looked pretty much like this except it did have the engine in it when I bought it (I remember the day I saw it and couldn't believe it. I bought it for less than 3 figures, and the yardman told me I was lucky it hadn't been crushed). You can see another pic in my profile by clicking the my blue letter name.
Brian H - I'd also like to supplement Joseph S info on the Model 129 with a 44A deck. I've had several 129 units over my time and believe most were equiped with a 42 or 44A deck. I believe the 129 with a 12hp Kohler makes a very sweet tractor, and the 44A deck is pretty much a standard use or ideal size with this 12hp unit. The 12hp engine provides quite sufficient power to operate the 129 hydro speed control, and plenty of power to operate the 44A deck quite well. Many of the earlier 12hp CC units were equiped with a 48" deck and I believe 12hp was sufficient for those as well. If you're planning to mows hills or slopes you may find the tractor speed slows down but this is most likely more of a problem with the tractor hydro speed control (trunion on the pump) than the combined power need of the deck and tractor speed. This also depends on the incline angle but I would venture to say you won't mow with the tractor at full ground speed. This also assumes the 12hp engine is "up to snuff" with good operational performance. If it's tired it probably wouldn't handle any deck very well.
As was mentioned, production records identify 4005 units produced, all in 1974. It is the 2nd lowest production unit of the IH CC models (the model 800 Quiet Line being the lowest production but it was apparently discontinued due to low sales volume). The 1x8/9 series began production in 1972 (if I recall correctly, or maybe late 1971) having the 149 with 14hp as the top of the line unit. The 169 was added to the production line sometime approx. March 1974, and was apparently due to consumer demand for greater horsepower.
The 169 was the 1st IH CC unit to provide 16hp and was primarily equiped with a Kohler K341A 16hp engine with 13 cooling fins on the block. It also appears Kohler was making a casting change to their K341A sometime in 1974 as well since some of the 169's came equiped with a 12 cooling fin block. The 13 cooling fin block did show up in a few early 1650 Quiet Line units as a Model K341AQS but the 12 became the standard block and the 13 production by Kohler seems to have ended in late 74 or early 75.
The 13 cooling fin block actually appears to be more common in the 169 based on Forum member reports of which engine they have. There seems to be no known method to distinguish the 13 fin vs. 12 fin block from the Kohler model, serial number or spec numbers. You have to count the fins to determine which you may have. The 13 fin block is actually a thicker casting, and highly desirable by Pulling enthusiasts since the block can be bored to a full 4" which the 12 fin block cannot (I believe the max bore for a 12 fin is 3 and 7/8").
Also, the Kohler block spec'd to IH CC use is somewhat a rarity since the base is cast differently than the standard Kohler style tall base or even the "eared" base used for a JD unit. So a 13 fin Kohler with the correct IH CC base is going to be very difficult to locate, and may have only been produced by Kohler for use in an IHCC (although I have no actual data on that).
The 169 also appears to have been a hurried addition to the IH product line since later when IH introduced the Quiet Line series (late 1974) the model 1650 with 16hp was advertised in some IH literature as the most powerful Cub Cadet produced by IH (as if the 169 was forgotten).
The 169 was also the first CC to include a Maintenance Minder (more commonly called an Hour Meter and also noted as such in the parts book), which became standard on the Quiet Line series.
With further regard to "rarity" of the Kohler 13 fin block, as Don T points out he had a Bolens with a 13 fin. This is exactly why IH introduced the 169. Most competitors had a 16hp unit and IH had planned a 16hp for the 1650 in the Quiet Line series but hurried the 16hp engine into a model 169 to be competitive.
I must close by saying most of the information I've provided here is supported by some details obtain from IH archives but I don't have the exact references. Paul Bell is a more knowledgeable member on here and may provide any correction as appropriate to my details.
So, all in all, the Model 169 with an original 12 or 13 fin Kohler engine, and having a producion of only 4005 units, and being the only 16hp with a direct mount or hard mount to the tractor frame (the 1650 used rubber ISO-mounts), is quite hard to find in operable or restorable condition these days. I found mine in a junk yard many years ago. Here is a pic I posted before but it looked pretty much like this except it did have the engine in it when I bought it (I remember the day I saw it and couldn't believe it. I bought it for less than 3 figures, and the yardman told me I was lucky it hadn't been crushed). You can see another pic in my profile by clicking the my blue letter name.
Brian H - I'd also like to supplement Joseph S info on the Model 129 with a 44A deck. I've had several 129 units over my time and believe most were equiped with a 42 or 44A deck. I believe the 129 with a 12hp Kohler makes a very sweet tractor, and the 44A deck is pretty much a standard use or ideal size with this 12hp unit. The 12hp engine provides quite sufficient power to operate the 129 hydro speed control, and plenty of power to operate the 44A deck quite well. Many of the earlier 12hp CC units were equiped with a 48" deck and I believe 12hp was sufficient for those as well. If you're planning to mows hills or slopes you may find the tractor speed slows down but this is most likely more of a problem with the tractor hydro speed control (trunion on the pump) than the combined power need of the deck and tractor speed. This also depends on the incline angle but I would venture to say you won't mow with the tractor at full ground speed. This also assumes the 12hp engine is "up to snuff" with good operational performance. If it's tired it probably wouldn't handle any deck very well.
Brian-
It's my understanding that when IH introduced the 129 with the 44A deck it became one of the most popular units ever produced and they sold quite a few of them. I use the 44A with mine plus it does garden duties as well. Dennis F. has used this set up and has spoken highly of its performance as have others here. I think a good strong K301 is one of the best Kohlers for these great little tractors.
It's my understanding that when IH introduced the 129 with the 44A deck it became one of the most popular units ever produced and they sold quite a few of them. I use the 44A with mine plus it does garden duties as well. Dennis F. has used this set up and has spoken highly of its performance as have others here. I think a good strong K301 is one of the best Kohlers for these great little tractors.
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Joel S - I've got a 44a deck on a 109 (10 hp) and it works great.
Charlie- Jeff
A little pot stirring is all I was up to. Harry you filled in all the blanks .
No cub time here because we are getting so much rain and still cold damp weather.my 129 loader is not charging and I will be in my shop today to see what is the problem with it.
A little pot stirring is all I was up to. Harry you filled in all the blanks .
No cub time here because we are getting so much rain and still cold damp weather.my 129 loader is not charging and I will be in my shop today to see what is the problem with it.
kide
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Joel S: I've used a 129 with a 48" deck since 1985.. Mowing lawn, gravel (those hardened blades don't like that) and even brush hogging on occasion. On regular length lawn, I've run WFO, with hydro lever to the wall lots of hours, just like the Scag ZT commercial job that replaced it for regular mowing duties..
hydroharry
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Don T - I think there is still one blank to fill in - "__________" (when you're getting yours)
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Harry B - I think Don T is holding out for a more modern 1650...
OTOH - It would be cool if I could find a wide frame 1x8 and put the 16 hp engine I have in it for a 168
OTOH - It would be cool if I could find a wide frame 1x8 and put the 16 hp engine I have in it for a 168
Cadets- My 122 Cub has some sloppy steering. I've read about replacing the (probably) very worn pin that rides in the worm gear inside the steering box. Remove deck and remove steering wheel to extract the steering column. I'm expecting a real fight in taking the wheel off. It probably hasn't been off in a long time- maybe never! Could this pin replacement be done from below after removing the deck- without taking the wheel off? Just wondering, I'll probably destroy the wheel getting it off, rather not have to buy a wheel you know... Thanks, Dave
David, first thing to do is make sure that the ball joints are all in good shape and the spindle cap is tight on the spindle on the left side. You might also want to look at the axle pivot pin and the channel to make sure that it's not spread apart any. It's amazing how much slop can be in those areas. Once those areas are addressed then it's time to look at the steering gear box.
<FONT SIZE="-2">IMO, FWIW, YMMV, My $0.02, Yada, Yada, Yada...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="-2">IMO, FWIW, YMMV, My $0.02, Yada, Yada, Yada...</FONT>
David C I'd trade you the 169 for a good 982.
Harry, we last made it down to the steam up in 2010 I think. Traffic was hell, took us 9 hours down. last year we went to the show in Monroe instead, closer to home = cheaper on gas, my built 460 real thirsty, as they say those ponies like to graze. were going to shoot for the union gap shop this year, and there is a show in Snohomish we might make in may.I've had 169 for about 8-9 years.
I'm glad to hear that a k301 12hp while operate a 44in deck, I'm dropping one into my 149 this week as temporary replacement while I try and figure out why the k321 ate a rod at 290hr and the again at 360 hrs any ideas would be appreciated.
Harry, we last made it down to the steam up in 2010 I think. Traffic was hell, took us 9 hours down. last year we went to the show in Monroe instead, closer to home = cheaper on gas, my built 460 real thirsty, as they say those ponies like to graze. were going to shoot for the union gap shop this year, and there is a show in Snohomish we might make in may.I've had 169 for about 8-9 years.
I'm glad to hear that a k301 12hp while operate a 44in deck, I'm dropping one into my 149 this week as temporary replacement while I try and figure out why the k321 ate a rod at 290hr and the again at 360 hrs any ideas would be appreciated.
Frank A. The original rebuild was done because the governor gear was striped. the engine was bored, crank turned, new rod, piston, rings, cam etc. ran fine up until 292hrs. The wife was mowing the yard, said it lost power, started smoking out the breather so she shut it down and got me. started it up again and it seized. tore it down and found that the rod had seized to the crank, and the dipper was broken off the rod. completely tore down the engine, found no signs of oil starvation to any other components. Jet washed every thing to get rid of any metal debris. had the cranked turned, new rod and rings. put back in , broke it in changed the oil.
then this year at 360 hrs same thing happened, first time I figured oh well after 35 years of fixing cars I've come across a lot of stuff that you'll never figure out so just fix it and move on. But know after only 70 hrs of use i need to try and get a handle on this.
then this year at 360 hrs same thing happened, first time I figured oh well after 35 years of fixing cars I've come across a lot of stuff that you'll never figure out so just fix it and move on. But know after only 70 hrs of use i need to try and get a handle on this.
Kraig- Well I replaced the ball joints a few years ago, so I think those are all good. I really don't like that axel / cap connection. Seems like a bad design to me. Axel and cap should be matching splines I think. If I wanted to tighten it up I suppose I could drill it out and put a new (larger) pin in there, maybe tap the whole thing and run a hardened bolt through it. Yeah it would be best to get that buttoned up first and then see where I am. Dave
hydroharry
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Doug B - what brand of rod (Kohler, Stens, UNK) did you use in those rebuilds? The rod is the known weak link in my view with a finite life. Also wondering what oil you use? Also, you mention "breaking it in" - what exactly are you doing for this period? Special oil? Not really heard of anyone having failures as you describe, especially twice, so something sure seems amiss (but I ain't a real knowledgeable internal engine guy). Maybe David C and/or some of the others on here that have gone thru these Kohler K's several times, will pipe in on awareness of any similar experiences.
Hey, we're gonna have to link up for at least one of those shows. (my last trip to the Steam Up was about 3 and 1/2hr going and 4 on the way back. Made the loop around Portland on the way, but went thru on the way back, and of course got in the wrong lane. Have you ever been lost in Portland? It ain't easy finding I-5).
David P - to answer your initial question, yes it's possible to replace just the "cam follower" screw in your steering box, without removing the box from the tractor. You will need to have the deck off, and that should allow you direct access to the jam nut holding it in place. You'll also need an off-set screw driver since the screw slot is very close to the frame. Before you replace the cam follower you can attempt to "tighten it 1/4 turn from it's current position" and lock it with the jam nut again (make sure you keep track of the slot in the screw when loosening the jam nut as the screw tends to rotate, and when you tighten the jam nut it usually wants to rotate, so you have to hold it in place with the off-set screw driver). The cam follower screw tends to wear flat in one spot and by rotating it you put a round side back against the cam worm gear again. If you do this you'll have to make sure you don't get any real binding or kick back in the steering as you rotate the wheel thru full turns left and right. Most of this is discussed in the service manual but it's also on the basis of having the steering column removed and in a vice.
Before you go rotating or replacing the cam follower screw I would definitely make sure the ball joints are good, as well as the cap and spindle mentioned by Kraig. Drilling out the cap and spindle for use of a larger roll pin is a common repair. Drilling both out and just using a bolt is not a recommended repair since a bolt just "squeezes" the cap and doesn't hold the spindle. I've not heard of anyone tapping both together and not really sure how that could work. A roll pin springs tension (expands) to hold both cap and spindle in place, and although it may not be an ideal design it does provide many years of good service when done well. Also, slop from the axle in the axle channel can also appear as steering slop. Best to disconnect the ball joint at the bottom of the steering box and then hold the lever tight while you check the steering wheel for play to see how much actual play you have in the box. I consider about 1" rotational play or less to be good, and 2" is too much and needs adjusting or replacement work.
Hope this helps.
Hey, we're gonna have to link up for at least one of those shows. (my last trip to the Steam Up was about 3 and 1/2hr going and 4 on the way back. Made the loop around Portland on the way, but went thru on the way back, and of course got in the wrong lane. Have you ever been lost in Portland? It ain't easy finding I-5).
David P - to answer your initial question, yes it's possible to replace just the "cam follower" screw in your steering box, without removing the box from the tractor. You will need to have the deck off, and that should allow you direct access to the jam nut holding it in place. You'll also need an off-set screw driver since the screw slot is very close to the frame. Before you replace the cam follower you can attempt to "tighten it 1/4 turn from it's current position" and lock it with the jam nut again (make sure you keep track of the slot in the screw when loosening the jam nut as the screw tends to rotate, and when you tighten the jam nut it usually wants to rotate, so you have to hold it in place with the off-set screw driver). The cam follower screw tends to wear flat in one spot and by rotating it you put a round side back against the cam worm gear again. If you do this you'll have to make sure you don't get any real binding or kick back in the steering as you rotate the wheel thru full turns left and right. Most of this is discussed in the service manual but it's also on the basis of having the steering column removed and in a vice.
Before you go rotating or replacing the cam follower screw I would definitely make sure the ball joints are good, as well as the cap and spindle mentioned by Kraig. Drilling out the cap and spindle for use of a larger roll pin is a common repair. Drilling both out and just using a bolt is not a recommended repair since a bolt just "squeezes" the cap and doesn't hold the spindle. I've not heard of anyone tapping both together and not really sure how that could work. A roll pin springs tension (expands) to hold both cap and spindle in place, and although it may not be an ideal design it does provide many years of good service when done well. Also, slop from the axle in the axle channel can also appear as steering slop. Best to disconnect the ball joint at the bottom of the steering box and then hold the lever tight while you check the steering wheel for play to see how much actual play you have in the box. I consider about 1" rotational play or less to be good, and 2" is too much and needs adjusting or replacement work.
Hope this helps.
Doug, "...magnatrac..."
We're gonna have to change Kraig's sig line to Kraig the INSTIGATOR!
Who me?
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