1512D Starter Question

[rkeithley]

Roland B The way it was explained to me by Kubota was, The switch that was used in the Cub Cadet Diesels has a little resistance in it, on the start side. Then add a two small of wire (from key switch to start terminal. Add a couple safety switches that add resistance, pull some voltage for some dash lights, and you have a problem. I have cleaned/replaced/added grounds, cleaned/replaced terminals, wire and switches, the problem just comes back. This has been the best cure for me. delete message
Just forget it It is not worth my time

 

[rbedell]

Ron K:

With my line of work, I deal with electrical circuits every day.

I will acknowledge, that a Manufacturer (Cub Cadet included) may have undersized a component, and or a wire size.

However, if you have the correct and properly sized switch and wire, there will be NO resistance or loss. The starter solenoid is not a high amperage draw component. I would reasonably think that any 10A rated switch (and/or contact), along with 14AWG wire would be more than enough to satisfy the solenoid coil. So, if the proper components and wires are in place, there is no need for supplement devices.

I am not saying that you didn't have problems with your Cubs. I am not even going to comment on the off topic Mfr's. That is their problem(s).

The biggest problem I have seen with all of my Cubs, is the cheesy way IH and MTD grounded their systems. IN MY OPINION, the ground cable was undersized, and there is too much room for corrosion and loss with their system as the Cub ages. With a poor ground, this will cause all sorts of electrical problems.

Lastly, I am not into an argument thing. I am just tossing comments and experiences out there for consideration.

 

[digger]

Ron K.
Totally unrelated to this conversation, would ya email me please.

 

[kweaver]

As I understand it, it's like a 2-stage air compressor ... you take the voltage from one solenoid and run it through the second one to increase the voltage to 12v.

Wouldn't it just be easier to find where the paint is interfering with the ground and fix it... of course you can get paid more for adding a glob of parts.

 

[mkopishke]

Wow, I'm gone for a few days and look what happens!

Anyway, I checked every connection in the start circuit, and every other connection I could get my hands on (pretty much all of them). I was able to get from the no go 7v to 10.5v at the solenoid by doing this (the break switch was eating those 3 volts).

It's kind of strange, the second you turn the key EVERYTHING drops to 10.5v, even if you check it at the battery, once you release the key you get a healthy 12+v. I should also note that this drop happens with no load, ie the starter disconnected.

The good news is it looks like 10.5v is enough to kick the solenoid in so at least I'm able to get the tractor started.

I've also double checked all the grounds and my tractor has the extra ground from head to the battery.

So it's not 100% but it's better.

 

[rbedell]

Matthew K:

Time to replace the Brake Switch (or jumper it out - you know for test purposes)...

 

[kweaver]

Matthew - Sounds like it has a slight short to ground if it's dropping the voltage. A switch will just continue the circut or cut it out , not drop voltage.

 

[mkopishke]

OK, so I've still got the same old problem.

Tonight I pulled out the multi-meter figuring I would check the resistance of the start circuit.

From the positive battery terminal to 30 post on the switch (wire disconnected from switch): 5 ohms

From the 50 post on the switch to the solenoid (both disconnected from switch and solenoid): 6 ohms

From 30 post to 50 post in with key in start position, wires disconnected: 5 ohms

I'm honestly not sure what would be considered OK but all of those readings seem kind of high.

I don't get it.

 

[rbedell]

Matthew K:

With a VOM or DVM, it is common to touch the wire leads together and "zero" ohm out the meter.

With that procedure done.
From the (+) Battery Post to terminal 30 on the Ignition Switch should be ZERO ohms.
From terminal 30 to 50 on the Ignition Switch, with the key turned to the Start position, there be be ZERO ohms.
From Terminal 50 through the PTO Switch and Brake Switch, there should be ZERO ohms to the Small Terminal of the Starter Solenoid.

If you meter is Zero'd out and accurate, then I suspect some bad wires and/or terminal ends.

As a suggestion, run a jump wire from the (+) Battery Terminal directly to the small terminal on the starter solenoid, and see if the motor rolls over like it should.

 

[mkopishke]

I did that.

I have a DVM, the funny thing I noticed is that the reading would would start low then climb and then settle.

Of course it being a auto ranging DVM it's slower then death.

I'll try it again. I was working in the dark with not a ton of time.

 

[mkopishke]

I think I'm going to have to learn to live with it. Just keep the battery charged.

Went back today, tested everything before the switch, everything after the switch, and then the switch. No problems. Reinstall everything and the dead short jumps right back into the circuit.

Not only that but I get everything back together, go to mow the lawn and the stupid pin in the rear drive shaft coupler falls out again.

So, 2 night and I come out with negative gains, not positive.

 

[mkopishke]

Time to dig up an old thread.

Since my 1512D was in pieces anyway, I thought it was time to get down to the bottom of this voltage drop problem.

I rigged up my multi-meter with the red lead installed in the plug that goes to the starter solenoid and the black lead grounded to the battery.

What I found was at the starter switch level. Pretty much when you put the switch in the start position the voltage would drop from a healthy 12+ volts to 9-10 volts. I disconnected pole 30 & 50 and touched the two together and presto, a clean 12 volts to the solenoid.

That's not the answer though, or at least I don't think it is. I can make the switch function properly when I disconnect poles 17 & 19 (glow plugs). So, with everything hooked back up and the meter just across the battery terminals:

The switch in the Glow Plug position (turned backwards): 9-10 volts

The switch in the off position: 12 volts

The switch in the run position: 12 volts

The switch in the start position: 9-10 volts.

It seems that when the key is the the start position it's also running the glow-plugs, and that's what's killing me as there's not enough juice there to kick in the solenoid.

Both with the key in the glow-plug position and in the start position the amp meter shows full discharge.

So, how should I proceed?

Thanks,

 

[mkopishke]

Some more notes:

I found my better wiring diagram and it is suppose to run the glow-plugs in the start position.

They seem to be drawing a lot of juice. I know that's their M.O. but to the point where it prevents the tractor from starting?

I'm also suffering from it not starting when the machine has been run for a while and is nice and hot. Let everything cool off and it will start again.

I guess I can bypass the dash indicator and see if that helps.

 

[lhinds]

Matthew; What cc amperage battery do you have in the tractor? Have you tried tying two batteries to it with your hotshot cables? Just thinking.
Luther

 

[mkopishke]

I think it's time for a new battery.

I found that some folks have had luck with a Die Hard 33058 battery, which has like 595 CCA, the down die is it's going to take come modifications to make it fit.

DieHard also has a gold version of they're L/G size battery that brings 350 CCA to the table, which would be a decent upgrade to the 275 CCA battery I currently have.

Not sure which direction I'm going to go, right now I'm leaning towards the L/G battery, I'm not sure I'm up to making changes right now.

Anyone used the Diehards?

 

[sgalante]

I bought one of the Gold DieHards a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it is just the L/G variety. It made a world of difference to the standard L/G batteries I have had before in my 1512D. Since I am not the original owner of this machine, I've had it for about 11 or 12 years though, I don't think the extra cable modification that is mentioned below has ever been done on my tractor. I know that in the winter in Upstate NY, I use the block heater for about 30 - 45 minutes on a really cold day, but unless it is around 0 degrees, the Gold DieHard usually starts the thing right up (after my traditional 45 seconds of letting the glow plugs heat up in winter). I too wish I could find the battery that was supposed to go in that tractor. The L/G batteries look so small in comparison to the size of the tray. I'll have to look up that 33058 DieHard and see what needs to be done to retrofit it, the next time I need a new battery. I'm just NOT a tinkerer, so I'll probably just stick with what I know works somewhat well for me. I just looked it up, it is Part # 27185 I forgot if it is the U1 or U1R (forgot which side the Positive is on) Hope that helps. SteveG

 

[mkopishke]

Stephen,

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear.

I've added blocks on each side of my tray to keep my L/G style the battery secure. Works pretty well.

Sounds like I'm heading to Sears soon.

 

[mkopishke]

First off, I'm sorry, this is a 1512D which is CCC, not IH BUT it's a 782D in yellow clothes so I'm not way off topic...

Anyway, I have a tread going in the CCC forum but I thought it might catch a few more eyes here.

Pretty much I can't start the tractor and I've traced it back to the glow plugs. Not that they are not working but that when they're on they pretty much rob my system of the juice needed to kick the starter.

I was pretty sure my battery was at fault so I just purchased a new Die Hard 350 CCA (the old one was 275) L/G battery. I just installed it and it didn't help a thing.

So, I tested the resistance on the glow plugs (all wires removed) and all three read zero ohms resistance.

That doesn't seem right to me. My VW TDI reads some resistance. The way I see it now when the plugs are on it's pretty much shorting out the battery.

All three plugs were replaced when I rebuilt the engine a year ago.

Could it be three bad plugs or is there something else I should be looking at?

Thanks.

 

[mkopishke]

Well, my frustration level is just about ready to peak.

Today I bypassed all safety switches, still same problem.

So, for the fun of it I pulled the battery out of my Golf TDi (I was planing on pulling it out anyway to clean up the terminals) and guess what, same results as the small L/G battery! I don't have the specs off hand, but if that battery can't start the tractor nothing will.

So that brings me back to the glow plugs. Eliminate them from the circuit and the things spins over like crazy, put them back in and you can't get it to crank at all.

Is there something in the key that might be at fault?

This has to be simple.

K

 

[mgonitzke]

When you took the glow plugs out of the circuit, did you bypass that glowing coil indicator in the dash? Someone told me that that thing will get corroded and draw a lot of power and cause problems like that. If you haven't already, I'd either bypass that or clean it real good and check it for continuity.