1512D Starter Question

[mkopishke]

I installed a gear reduction starter on my 1512D and it's been turning over that D600B like a champ. The problem is last weekend I shut the tractor off for a minute to get out the sweeper and when I went back to start it I got nothing, not even a click. The amp meter needle would go all the way to the discharge side but no go. I was getting power to the started and to the solenoid when I hit the key.

I thought it might be the battery so I put the charger on it (it was down I bit) and left it for a while, after which it started right up. I ran it for a while, put it away and for the fun of it tried starting it again, nothing but a click.

Didn't have the charger handy so I left it. Today I went out and tried to start it and was surprised to find that it fired right up. I mowed the lawn, put it away and shut it off. Hit the key just to see what would happen and got nothing but a click again.

Does this suggest starter? I guess I could try jumping it just to make sure the batter is OK, but I have a feeling my new starter is at fault.

Thanks

 

[kmcconaughey]

Matthew, check your ground wires. The factory grounded the wire from the battery to the fender sheet metal, after time rust develops between the fender sheet metal and the frame. Better to ground it directly to the frame. Myron has posted on this numerous times. Could also be that your starter is getting a bit dirty and the solenoid is sticking, the extra juice from the battery charger is enough to kick it out.

 

[dmull]

Battery is under hood on a 1512D, but there is a service bulletin to add a second ground strap. I ran it from a starter mount bolt to the frame.

Also, check the positive lead on the starter while you are at it.

You mentioned a full discharge...I don't think that should be the case. I would load check the battery, and also look for any shors that could be draining your battery.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Ryan, Oops that's right the fuel tank is under the fender pan on a diesel.

In any case the grounds need to be looked at.

 

[mkopishke]

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

I'm still having the same old problem, the starter spins just like you would expect it when the machine is cold, nothing at all when it's hot and clicks when it cools down a bit.

I've seen the bulletin to add the second ground from the engine lift eyelet to the neg terminal (which my machine has) but never one to the starter.

I checked and cleaned all the grounds when I had the engine out.

I have a bad feeling it's my starter.

 

[mbounds]

Matthew K: If it were mine, I think I's check out the solenoid first....

Myron B
CCSupplyRoom

 

[mkopishke]

I still haven't figured out what going on here. Like all "fun" problems, it's intermittent. Today pulled it's trick so I broke out my mulitmeter to see if I could figure out what was going on.

The battery was putting out 12.88 volts, not to bad. The heavy lead from the batter to the starter measured at the starter was 12.88 volts, looks good so far...

I then tested the second lead at the starter, the one that gets energized when the key is turned to the start position, and with the key in the start position I was getting 7.4 volts.

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't that be 12v there as well? I'm looking at the wiring diagram and it looks like the wire goes from the switch to pole 50, to the PTO switch then the Break switch, which will then energize the starter?

Anyone seen this before?

 

[rbedell]

Mathew:

YUP....you will need the 12 VDC at the Starter Solenoid for it to engage.

You may have a bad contact in the Key Switch, PTO Switch, or Brake Switch. It could also be a bad wire and/or terminal end on any of the wires to and from these switches.

 

[mkopishke]

I ended up using a set of jumper cables and a nail to bypass all that stuff and get the thing running and back to the garage.

I take the meter and trace back to the switch, see if I can figure out what's going on.

I'm pretty happy is wasn't the starter!

thanks,

 

[rbedell]

Matthew:

Here is a Simplified Start Circuit to aid you in diagnosing your problem..

 

[rkeithley]

The Kubota diesels tractors had a service update, that added a second solenoid in the start line so a full 12V would get to the starter. The kit is no longer available from CC but Grashopper has them, I think the kit no. is 503710 ?? I remembering off the top of my head. You can make a kit your self. The kit is just a couple wires and a solenoid. You add a wire from the battery terminal of the starter solenoid to the large feed terminal of the new solenoid. Then remove the start wire from the starter solenoid and connect to the start terminal on the new solenoid. Then add a wire from the other large terminal on the new solenoid to the start terminal on the old starter solenoid and it will work. I'll try to find the service update and post a wiring diagram.

 

[mwheeland]

I don't know if this will help but it can't hurt. I work on Thermo Kings for a dairy here in PA. Thermo King company came out will a service bulletin about something like this. In the older Unit they have a problem with the wire that energizes the starter. It gains resistenze and the volt will decrease. Causing the starter to wear out sooner because the contacts burn out. Or the starter will just Click. I think that how it want. There fix for it was to put a bosch relay on the energizer wire. This is how you wire it.
30 post = Battery Hot +
85 post = energizer wire "from the key switch"
86 post = Ground -
87 post = Small post(second Lead) on the starter.
Don't use the 87a post
You can switch around the 86 and 85 post. But not switch the 30 post, it will burn the contacts.
This little fix make a big change in how often we change starters. Like you where saying about only having seven volt on the energizer wire. Seven volt is more then enough to energize a relay. BUT this only work on starter that have two post. One hot, the other to energize the starter. Like a car starter. Hope this might help.

 

[mbounds]

Ron K, Mathew W: And just what is the Cub Cadet Service bulletin number for such a starter wiring change???? Applying orange fixes to repair an apple is a no-no in my book....

Myron B
CCSupplyRoom

 

[digger]

That's only because apples rot faster!

 

[rkeithley]

Myron Bounds
The way Kubota key switch, wiring, is the start solenoid is only 6 to 7 volts is getting to the solenoid start terminal. For most solenoids this is enough to energize the solenoid and start motor, But not with the kubota solenoid/starter. It needs a full 12 volts to work right. That is why adding the second solenoid will solve the problem. I guess if you want to keep a close mine that is OK, but I did this on my Grasshopper mower with Kubota engine, CC 2182, and 2-1782's along with several other peoples Kubota powered equipment and it worked every time. If you want to be cheap just disconnect the present start wire then add a toggle switch and run a wire from the battery terminal on the starter to the toggle switch and a second wire from the toggle switch to the start terminal on the starter. I think the kit no from grasshopper is No. 503710, Any good commercial Grasshopper dealer should know or be able to find out about it.

 

[mbounds]

Ron K: I've got a 782D and have owned a 1512 and have <u>never</u> had to do that kind of rigging on either...Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you need to or should....Some dogs will eat feces too, but it doesn't mean I'm going to...So stick to the Cub Cadet service manual procedures and be aware of and comply with pertinent Cub Cadet service bulletins and you won't have to worry about what off-topic machines have/need....plus you won't be giving bad advice to those Cub Cadet owners with less experience and knowledge.

Myron B
CCSupplyroom

 

[rbedell]

Ron K:

I am curious. On a 12V system, just why would the solenoid only be getting 6 to 7 volts..?? The only thing that I can think of that would cause that, is bad contacts causing a high resistance connection, undersized wire, and/or bad terminal ends.

If that is the case, then if it were me, then I would search to find the reason for that condition as oppose to adding supplement relays to offer relief.

 

[rkeithley]

I don't want to start a fight But I am not giving other CC people bad advice. Just because you did not know about this or have not had a problem with it does not mean it not occurring. There are Three people just on this post that has or is have the problem. Several years ago this same problem/solution was talked about on one of the CC sites, and this solution was the fix. I do not know the Cub Cadet no. for the service Bulletin It was with Kubota that it was printed. (I will look for it) I remember reading the bulletin and then later looking at the Grasshopper bulletin which was worded about the same. The key switches in my 1782's Cub Cadet and grasshopper with Kubota Diesel are the same, which is where most the voltage drop occurs.
If you read my post I said I had to do this to my 1782's and 2182 Cub Cadets also, they are not off-topic machines. Also I have had to do this to several other people's Cub Cadets with Kubota engines. I happy you have never had to do this but that does not mean that other people have not had to do this or will have to do this.
Also just because it is not in the service manuals/bulletions does not mean it is wrong. Guy's trying to fix manufacturer's mistakes and Fixing them, is why manufacturers issue service bulletins, so everyone know the problem/solution.

 

[mbounds]

Hi Roland...Yeah, you are right about the 12v. Also, how many times have we posted that bad connection, bad ground circuit warnings on these Kubota diesel engined models...Some folks should check out CC Service Bulletin 106 while they're cleaning those corroded connections...

Myron B

 

[mbounds]

Ron K: Till a Cub Cadet Service Bulletin to that effect is produced, it's bad advice!! If the shoe fits.....It matters not what problems Kubota had with their own machines or other off-topic brands. It matters only if Cub Cadets have the problem. They do NOT (repeat <u>do NOT</u>), particularly if you follow Cub Cadet procedures....Crapola from other sites is just that - crapola! Leave it over there and here try to follow known, documented, and correct Cub Cadet procedures!! Pay attention to Roland on that voltage business....He knows....

Myron B