V-Belt B-Belt Dilemma

[jchamberlin]

What is with these B-Belts?

I have to use non-standard belts on my customized mowing deck setup which I inherited from the previous owner who did most of the "confuguliating" on my early red CCC Model 782 (originally sold through an IH dealer), so I pick up whole inch sized "B" Belts at the local tractor supply store.

This year, I changed the under-carriage which required restoring the mounting brackets to where they were when I acquired the tractor. The new mounting required new belts. The old 88" belt (B-86) was too long, and a B-80 (84" was too short), so I bought a B-85 (87" long), and B-84 (86" long) at less than $10.00 each.

The 87" (B-85) belt went on OK, but after mowing only a short time, it was out of adjustment and there wasn't any room left on the tensioner bolt; so I swapped in the 86" long belt (B-84). I ran it briefly to "seat" the belt and adjusted the tension within the limits given by the notches on the "ratchet." I felt I was good to go, now.

But after mowing my 1/2 acre yard only one (1) time, the 86" belt looks to be just as long as the 87" belt, and I have run out of adjustment a second time.

Pictures:

What gives? Is this belt stretching? Is it simply seating itself deeper into the pulley grooves?

I've got a B-83 belt (85" long) and a B-82 belt (84" long) to try next, but buying all these belts is getting as expensive as buying a bona-fide MTD or Cub Cadet belt. Plus, I don't know which length to buy if they all seat themselves up 2-3".

Any guidance out of this dilemma would be welcomed.

And yes, a 44A and a 50A deck have been procured, and as soon as I can accumulate enough good spindles, I'm going to drill a new hole in the front and mount one of them to the 782 at which point it will finally be unconfuguliated.

 

[aschumacher]

I'm looking at the edge of the belt and wondering why it starting to shred. You mentioned it maybe seating down in, all all the pulleys the same type? Looks like the belt is riding kinda deep on those front pulleys. My Cub doesn't have any accessories so no belt/pully expierence. Just making initial observation.

 

[jchamberlin]

Allen,

Yes, they are sitting kind of deep, that is part of what concerns me. The frayed edge you're seeing is being caused by a combination of factors. First, is the way the belt the belt has to "turn up" toward the PTO pulley; the second factor is that the fabric covering of the "V" portion of the belt quickly wears away once the mowing begins.

When the belt is first fitted to the tractor/deck the big edge is actually sitting outside the pulley! It breaks in even with the pulley, and "wears out" by sinking all the way in.

By-the-way, I got my "B" numbers out-of-sync with the inch-length. The belts I've tried, and their lengths are listed below:

B-85 = 88" long, too long (Length of IH Cub Cadet belt for 44C deck is 88-1/2")
B-84 = 87" long, quickly out-of-adjustment
B-83 = 86" long, Currently installed, almost as quickly out-of-adjustment
B-82 = 85" long, next one up
B-81 = 84" long, If B-82 doesn't work
B-80 = 83" long, too short to install over pulleys as installed on tractor

 

[digger]

I think what you failed to mention was, what brand/type of belts you bought a bunch of.

All belts are not created equal ya know.

 

[jchamberlin]

Charlie,

Let me correct that situation. The brand of belts were all manufactured in India and marketed under the name shown in the pictures below.

I went out and installed the B-82 belt which is given as 85" long --it barely fit over the pulleys, I don't think I can install a belt that is any shorter.

This is what belt looks like immediately after installation, before ever running the mower. I'm cooling off now, and when I finish my drink, I'll run the mower a bit to see if it stretches out at all.

I don't have to mow this week, so it will be a week or so before I can tell if it stretches out as much as the other two did.

If it stops stretching to the point I can still adjust it, I figure that the issue is limited to "breaking in" to the pulley's "V"; if it stretches out beyond the range I can adjust it, then I figure the issue is simply "stretch" and that the belt can't handle the tension under which IH designed the belt to operate the deck.

Remember, the deck is not original to the tractor; it was "adapted" from a cheaper MTD mower to "fit" the Cub Cadet under-carriage.

 

[jchamberlin]

For your viewing pleasure:

The belt at the PTO pulley BEFORE running the belt at all. (PTO was originally installed in an off-topic tractor 6000 series Crapsman.)

After running the mowing deck with the tractor stationary for about 6 minutes (1/10th of an hour on the meter). You can see that it is just entering the adjustment range as the first notch is peeking out.

A view from the side, the fabric is becoming visible. The belt and pulley were hot to the touch, and the smell of rubber was evident. I should add that I could smell rubber the whole time I mowed with the B84 (87" belt), it was not as noticeable with the B83 (86" belt).

We'll see what happens after I finish my first 1/2 acre with this belt . . ..

 

[kharvey]

It looks like the idler pulleys are tipped in so the belt is wearing to much on the outside. All the fraying is on the side in your pictures.

 

[jchamberlin]

Kendall:

It does appear that way, doesn't it?

I haven't modified the "new" mule drive from what I think is it's stock position; with the old mule drive, I went to considerable trouble to twist the pulleys to the way the belt ran.

(I also mounted the adjusting pulley on a stand-off so that the belt ran inside the front deck hangers because I didn't realize that side of the belt ran to the outside on the 82 series.)

This go-round, I just wanted to see if I could get it work as designed. I don't mind going back and adjusting the angle of the pulleys if need be, but first I want to see if the problem is the belt before modifying the carriage (again).

I also know more about how the belt should be tensioned than I did before. I could never figure out what the diagram illustrated on the front of the mule drive until I finally got the correct ratchet with the "new" mule drive. I used to be happy as long as the sprung pulley didn't touch the mule drive.

I should also add, before someone mentions it, that the pulley bearings seem to be in good shape and I oiled them up well before fitting the carriage to the tractor.

I think the problem is going to boil down to the belt or the pulleys, but we'll see.

If modifying the mule drive keeps me from consuming a belt every time I mow, I'll bend the steel to adjust the pulleys.

 

[dross]

Jeremiah, Just an odball question. Your kinda mixing and matching parts. Have you checked the angle of the V in the Crapsman clutch pulley to see if it matches the V in the rest of the pulleys. Check your idlers too. In the first picture from the bottom the Left (drive side) is farther out, Thats the pull side with the eye bolt tightener. The right (coeast) side sets further in. That doesn't make sence, unless them pulleys are different.

 

[digger]

Jeremiah C.
At least your man enough to admit you bought junk.

There's a reason why sleezebay sellers flood the market with'um ya know.

 

[jchamberlin]

Charlie: Are you saying that there are better quality generic B-Belts available? I bought these locally, not over the Internet.

Dave: Yes, I'm mixing parts, big time. It is all a matter of availability. Do you think the PTO pulley could be sized differently than an IH standard "V" or could it be a bit different in diameter?

I now have a Kohler M18 which came out of a CCC Model 1862. I think I might check it's diameter and "V" dimensions against what is on the tractor now. (If its smaller, I'm going to lose some tip speed on my blades . . ..)

Thanks for the input, guys. I find it very helpful.

 

[dross]

Jeremiah, Through expirience, my own and others. A lot of generic V belts are for electric motors. They will not last behind a gas engine. The cub belts are expensive but those belts make two 90 degree twists in a very short distance. Cub belts are made for it.
Belts are made to pull on the V part of the belt. In the first picture you posted at 5:44 yesterday theres a lot of shiny metal showing at the top inside edge of that pulley. It makes me question what part of the belt is "pulling" if it sets to low in the pulley it could be pulling off the narrow inside edge of the belt. If it has the wrong angle on the V (pitch) it could be pulling on the outside edge of the wide part of the belt.

 

[jchamberlin]

Dave, I see your point and I share your concern.

I don't think the belt is sitting well in the pulleys. I'm not sure how I can check where it is riding in the "V," but I'll try to check it out.

Taking inventory of the pulleys in the "system," I've got a OT tractor pulley at the PTO, an MTD 5/8" pulley at the deck, and what I believe are IH/CCC idler pulleys on the under-carriage.

The idler pulleys are "new to the party," so they may be causing issues.

The PTO pulley seems to be PLENTY wide enough at the outside edge, but I'm not sure how the pitch lines up.

The deck pulley should be working OK, the 5/8" belt that drives the spindles seems to wear fine.

With the old setup, I could get at least a year on a B-Belt, but I wasn't as demanding about it's adjustment; the belt wore off its sides just the same.

Again, I'm not sure if the issue is the shape of the pulleys, the amount of tension on the belt, or the turns it has to take.

Based on my recent experience, the next time I mow, when I'm done, I expect to find all the fabric worn off the "V" portion of the belt. I'm just wondering where the ratchet will be resting.

If the B-82 (85" long) belt doesn't work, I'm either calling Charlie to see what he has to offer in the 86" range; or I'm halting all "development" and dropping in the 44A deck.

 

[digger]

Jeremiah C.
Yes I am.

Next to OEM belts, the Stens Blue belt is pretty dang good.

Pix belts used to be a half good belt years ago, but like you say, India took it's toll on quality.

On the sleezebay thing, I didn't imply that you bout it there.
My point was, that when the word gets out that things are not the best, they usually always end up on sleezebay for that very reason.

 

[jchamberlin]

Update: After 60 minutes of easy mowing (grass wasn't high and I went slow), just the back yard (1/4 acre) the belt showed signs of "breaking in" --into the pulleys that is:

The belt doesn't appear to be stretching so much as wearing into the "V" of the pulley, so I adjusted the tension and wound up with a decent "mid-point" for new belt.

Note: the pulleys weren't overly warm and the belt was fairly cool to the touch; so even if I did smell a bit of rubber, and the even if the fabric was worn off the side of the belt, I'm hopeful that this belt will wind up giving me good service. And by "good service" I mean for at least a year or two (or three) --I'm not looking for Dennis Frisk's 40 years on the same belt longevity. After all, this isn't an IH design. I just want to know that I have the proper tension on the pulleys and that the deck is being driven correctly by the PTO and that I don't have to go out and buy a new belt every time I want to mow the grass in my yard!

So right now, I'm thinking that this is "normal wear" for generic "B" belt. If, after the next 60 minutes of mowing I have to adjust it again, I'll be concerned; if I have to adjust it a third time, I'm calling in the cavalry, i.e., Charlie Proctor whom I trust to guide me in this sort of thing.

 

[jchamberlin]

After less than 1/4 acre on the front yard, maybe 45 minutes of deck-running time, the belt needed another adjustment. I got a faint smell of rubber the whole time I mowed and there was "belt fuzz" all over the adjustment bolt.

I don't like the way this is trending . . .

 

[mgonitzke]

That doesn't need adjustment; the belt wore out again. You said you have the correct deck, subframe etc...I really don't understand why you keep screwing around with this. By my count, you're on the third belt...if those three inferior belts failed, what do you think subsequent ones will do? One more $10 belt and you've spent approximately the equivalent cost of an OEM belt for the correct deck that you have.

IMO it's time to put on the correct deck with the correct belt (and get more serious about finding good spindles, if that's the excuse) and stop throwing your money away.

 

[jchamberlin]

Matt: You're probably right, it just hurts me to pay what they want for new spindles! I can't accumulate any more tractors. I would gladly buy used deck for $100, but nothing has opened up locally. Maybe I'll give the sponsors a call to see if they have any used spindles they would be willing to part with.

The deck cuts really well, the blades turn so fast the deck hums, and it has a high tunnel. In short: it still works. I planned to use it until I had to fix it again and THEN replace it.

I appreciate your honest and forthright assessment.

 

[lhinds]

Matt

 

[jknight]

If you look at this photo; the belt is not running straight in the pulley.