"Upgrading" a 2072 alum rearend to cast iron?

[nbextermueller]

So after the debacle of a overly wobbly CV driveshaft in my 2072, the pump now has a whine in it and groans when I turn the power steering. So I assume I hurt the pump in some way.

1. Are the Sunstrand pumps rebuildable and/or affordable to rebuild? Or should I be on the look out for a good used pump.

2. I have and extra IH 782 cast iron rear end w/ internal brake. I have read recently the Super hydro pump has a different pitch output rear to match the equally different pitched pinion gear in the Super rear end. Is this correct? Put another way, the Super pump won't mesh with the 782 rear, correct?
OR
Is it that the Super pump has a higher pressure and volume capacity to run all the extra hydro goodies on a Super?

Ideally, I'd like to unbolt the Super pump, repair if possible to remove the whine, and bolt it to the 782 cast rear end. Has anybody done that swap? Or do I need to just use the 782 pump if it has enough volume and pressure.

Lastly: brakes. The 782 rear end has the internal wet brake. Obviously the 2072 has independent, external disc brakes. I figured if I just removed the 782 rear cast brake lever and swapped the discs on to the axle's, the rear diff would never know the difference. Thoughts?

 

[eford]

Steve B. Just stated in sand box you could change the pressures of the pump. I do believe they are rebuildable. However I am in no way a knowledgeable source. I'd assume your route of complete rear/pump swap would be fine, and with the external brake swap I think you have it about figured out.

 

[mgonitzke]

The final drive ratio is different, so to use the super pump in the 782 rear you'd need to use the reduction gear from the super. Since the 782 rear has the wet brake, you'll have to use the pinion shaft from the 782. Since you are going to have the rear totally apart, you may as well put the axles and carrier from the 1872 in the CI rear, which will require you to change the ring gear so you can keep the CI rear pinion shaft.

What I would also do, if it'll fit, is get rid of that stupid linkage that connects the left split brake pedal to the left side pedal, and then tie the wet brake to the left side pedal so you have both a parking brake and split wheel brakes.

 

[wcompton]

<What Matt said!>

The pumps aren't too hard; the easiest option would be to swap the bottom shaft of that hydro into the 782 pump and everything goes back together easy.

The CI swap isn't bad, but you'll need swap the bottom shaft over and re-shim the pinion to mate to the gear.

I did this to my 2072, and changed the CI rear over to the fine spline axles. Now that I've got a Ruegg 3-point (exact replicate of parts for the 982) I like having the weight and strength all the better.

 

[nbextermueller]

Don't you have to have the cast iron axle tubes machined to make room for the metric bearings on the fine spline axles?

I really like the idea of the wet parking brake and disc turning brakes! What an awesome thought!

 

[wcompton]

Nic-
Only if you go to the later generation (cyclops) 30mm axles. Your 2072 should have axles that fit the cast iron tubes without modifications.

I wish I'd have had a 782 rearend at the time (even though now I do), I'd have made the change to get the wet park brake and turning brake too. That would be a definite improvement over the early 1250 rear that I used.

 

[nbextermueller]

So I am finally moving ahead on this project so that the 2072 can be ready for mowing duty shortly. But I came across something I found odd.

I was under the assumption that the older cast iron rear ends (hydro or GD) all had the weaker cast ring gear carrier and course spline axles. And the later aluminum rear ends had the beefier carrier and fine spline axles.

But as I was taking apart the cast iron hydro rear end from a CCC 782 I found that the outer axle tubes are aluminum. Curious I tested the tubes on my IH 782 and found the same. I also tested a GD rear sitting near by, that has cast iron tubes.

That's not the weird part. Once I pulled the axle clips out of the old style cast carrier and slid out the non-disk brake axles, I was really surprised to see fine spline axles and spider gears!

Is this a previous owner up grade? Or is there a point where IH started making kind of a combo of parts to start to shed weight?

Obviously the alum axle tubes are common as I have 2 tractors with them. But I was really surprised to see the fine spline axles. It makes me wonder what is in my IH 782. I'll be replacing the hydro pump on that shortly too, so we will soon find out.

 

[nbextermueller]

Btw, Matt and Wyatt,

I am using a pump from an 1862 and so far I have not had to change any of the pinion or reduction gear parts to fit the cast iron stuff already in place in the CI rear. and now that the CI rear end already has fine spline spider gears, the extra disk brake axles it had slid right in! no carrier change needed.

I haven't pulled the rear out of the 2072 yet, but Even if the end result is a slightly slower gear ratio, that will be fine.

 

[joligschlaeger]

?? How would a CC 1450 complete hydro transaxle assembly work in a 1572?

 

[nbextermueller]

Sure Joe, you may high jack my thread. its cool...

But for your question. It should work fine if they both have the same driveshaft hook ups and brake style.

Does you 1572 have the aluminum rear end like my 2072?

 

[mgonitzke]

The 1572 has the same rearend as the 1872. You can swap the entire unit, but the reduction ratio is different, so the tractor will be faster and have a bit less torque at the rear wheels than if you swapped the reduction gear on the pinion shaft and used the 1572's original pump.

Nic-

I think that most CCC-built tractors with CI rearends had fine-spline axles. Axle tubes were aluminum since the middle of QL production.

 

[nbextermueller]

Matt, I will do the math once I get the rear out of my 2072, but I'm surprised you mentioned the 1450/782 rear would make a diesel go faster. My 2072 has always been faster than my 782. I assumed it was because of the 26" tire instead of a 23" tire.

I'm not doubting you, But hopefully soon we will have the math to know exactly.

 

[nbextermueller]

Ok, here's what the CCC 782 gear ratios are before I forget them:

Pinion reduction gears. 12 teeth on the pump and 66 teeth on the big pinion gear. Giving a ratio of 5.5:1

Ring and pinion gears: pinion itself has 10 teeth and the ring gear has 46 teeth. Giving a ratio of 4.6:1

I have yet to count the 1862 rear to make sure its the same. But it look the same.

 

[mgonitzke]

Pretty sure the output shaft of the SGT hydro pump has 11 teeth. I don't have the clearest picture of one from when I did the conversion to my 1872, but the one I do have looks like 11.

The idea was to compensate for the larger tires, but those OEM Goodyear turfs inflate to such a large diameter that it is probably still faster.

 

[nbextermueller]

I'm not sure I'm going to mess with changing the reduction gears in this CI because I'm not using the Super pump. The 1862 pump I'm using has 12 teeth too, so it bolts right on.

I DON'T want to to split this pump to swap output shafts.

BUT... If I did want to change reduction gears, how do you get the "freeze plug" out that is holding the front pinion bearing out without destroying it? it obviously needs to come out, but there si no way of getting a hold of it.

On a side note... maybe a slightly faster 2072 will finally be able to keep up Joe Bowman's (another member here and friend) 1864. He can mow a good 10%-20% faster than me with his cyclops and High rise deck and faster blades speeds. I'm too afraid of fabbing up a speed up pulley for the 60" Haban deck. That's a lot of mass to be spinning so fast.

 

[mgonitzke]

The freeze plug has to be replaced after you destroy it removing it. I think I punched a hole in it and pried it out with a screwdriver.

Also, be careful with the Eaton ring that holds the pinion shaft in...replacements are available but rather pricey.

 

[dschwandt]

Use a slide hammer w/a big azz sheet metal screw.

 

[wcompton]

Matt's right - that big snap ring required a big expander... and without holes in the ring I had to find one with the knurled "ends" vs the pins. Attempting to do it with two large screwdrivers will leave the ends of the ring in a shape that you'll need to dress them with a file to get it to go back into the groove.

Nic- As Matt said, the big welch plug needs to come out. They don't require much, usually the corner of a cold chisel in the center is enough to raise an edge to pry out. Putting it back in works really well with a bead of Loctite 515 (good sealant to have on hand). One tap to the center of the welch plug with a solid blow from a wide faced heavy hammer. I'm not a fan of silicone on this joint (even with my favorite standby of Loctite 5900)

 

[nbextermueller]

Ok... Update and picture time.

Don't ever let anyone tell you drive line vibrations don't fix themselves. Cause the moment the driveshaft came detached from the hydro unit, the vibration stopped! So did the tractor... and it was followed by lost of knocking, noise, and carnage. But the vibration did stop.

Basically it is my fault. I broke off a tap in the input shaft of the Hydro pump when I was converting to the CV shaft and just assumed the trapped driveshaft would be fine. because of the broken tap, I couldn't bolt the mount flange to the hydro unit. It has actually ran just fine since 2011 like that. Until the last mow of last season.

So here is where I started asking all the other questions. The IH782 next to the donor 1862 rearend that late model pump is coming from. Under the seat is a GD rear end from a CCC1050 that I stole the fine spline axles w/ disc brakes from.

"new" pump...

782 pump... (this will be going in my 782 to replace the failing pump in it.)

See the "L" shaped brake lever on the ground? This required torch heat to get out and working properly again. The cross shaft was seriously rusted and seized in place. I'm going to take Matt's advice and hook this up to make an actual parking brake and then leave the R side pedals for turning brakes only.

All Cleaned up. (basically)

The first coat is Zero Rust. This stuff is amazing! it's kinda like POR15 except waaaayyy better and comes in quarts, gallons, or spray cans. It also sticks to bare metal AND rust unlike POR15 that flakes right off bare, shiny metal.

After the first coat of Zero Rust. It cures in 1hr and has a tiny bit of a rubber feel. It took 15mins of rubbing with alcohol to get it off my finger nails.

And after the first coat of Rustoleum gloss black top coat.

So that is where is currently sits. Yes, I moved it up to the house garage where it's heated to paint. I will carry it back down to the shop later today and hopefully find time to get the broken Alum rear out of the 2072.

I also need to swap pumps on the 782, but I'm not pulling the rear end out to do it.

 

[lpalma]

Looks like you had some fun Nic, how will you check the trans oil in the tranny when the back plate is on the 1862 or are you not using it?