• If you're having trouble logging into your account , you can Reset Password
Kirk Engines, Inc Cub Cadet Used Parts CADET CONNECTION Cub Cadet Specialties Cub Cadet Specialties

Not a pretty sight!

Help Support IH Cub Cadet Forum:

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Taking apart my twin stick 1450's engine to locate an oil leak and discovered the cast iron oil pan is cracked on one corner. The engine has always smoked since I had it and the head gasket is also leaking so further dismantle was also warranted. Had planned on installing a snow blade using the hydraulic angle parts I picked up over the weekend.

Removed the head to repair the head gasket and found the engine has a .010 o/s piston. It was covered in oil and the valves were encrusted with carbon. So...it looks like a complete tear down and overhaul is in order.

BY the looks of the piston, being really clean on the one side opposite the valves, I am hoping that the issue is miss- aligned ring gaps maybe all in line???
What are the chances of that

I did my 1650 last year about this time and it turned out really well and is about the best running Cub in my stable at present. I plan on using the same machine shop in Cedar Rapids on this job as well. Pictures or it didn't happen.
DSCN7501.JPG
DSCN7502.JPG
DSCN7503.JPG
 
Last edited:

kmcconaughey

Keeper of the Photos
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
16,166
Location
Wisconsin
displayname
Kraig McConaughey
That's a lot of oil and carbon.😲
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Got the piston out and there was only 2.25" between the end gaps on the rings right below the valves.
.010" O/S piston w/no signs of any crosshatch left at all.
 

mfrade

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2000
Messages
1,723
Location
New Bedford, MA
displayname
Mike Frade
I'll have to ask you to clarify the end gap measure. As written I'm reading 2 & 1/4 inch. Did you mean two hundred twenty five thousandths? Also - the rings do not stay stationary, they do rotate slowly on the piston, Looking at the pictures above, I see worn valve guides causing you the oil coking problems.

Just my opinion, that and 2 bucks will get you a coffee... maybe! ;)
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
I always read the rings should be placed so the end gaps are spaced 120* apart.
Anyway, it's going to the machine shop next week for an evaluation.
Lots of erosion on the upper land of the piston and there was lots of slop with the piston in the bore before I removed it. Yes, 2-1/4" Mike.
The kits from Isavetractors come w/new valves and the guides are only about $10 each more. I'm sure the shop will note the guides also, they did the last time around w/the 1650 engine.
DSCN7506.JPG
 

hdeloach

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
4
displayname
Herbert C DeLoach
Remove one of the piston rings.Place it in the cylinder making sure it is square in the bore ie the same distance from the top of the block---not crooked in the bore and about 1" down in the bore. Now measure the gap in the ring---that is end gap.
 

dfrisk

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 12, 2001
Messages
6,152
displayname
Dennis Frisk
You must idle that engine ALOT. Typically Kohlers turn the exh valve white and burn the carbon off because they run yellow hot under load. Can't begin to explain why so much oil on top of piston. The carbon build-up also hints excessive idling. I've explained several times here how to remove carbon from the combustion chamber using a spray bottle of water. Start engine, remove air filter cover, spray small stream of water into carb, engine rpm should be around half throttle. Doesn't take much to clean things up so they run better. Normally replace the spark plug when I did this.
Lack of cross hatch on block leads me to think somebody did a quick and sloppy rebuild, removed +.010" piston, ran a bottle brush hone thru the bore, new +.010" piston & rings and put it up for sale. I'll be curious what the rod and crankshaft journal look like.
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Used it with a tiller for 2 years before this last season so it ran more or less wide open for that.
Sat in the shed for the last year after the 1650 got the tiller this past spring.
Judging from how clean 75% of the piston top was, I think you are correct with the cobble O/H job,
Odd there was no ridge on the top of the cylinder either.
The head bolts all came out easily with my DeWalt drill motor
Everything but the head gasket was goobered up with red silicone sealant oozing out all over the place over what looked like petrified gasket remains. I'll get the skinny on the spec's next week some time and come back with an update.
They will tell me what I need to order in terms of parts.

Well that's all history now . It will be done right this time around.
It was a $250 pick up with a bunch of other stuff a few years back including another twin stick 1450 that I have not messed with yet. Don't even know if the engine is free or not. I do know both hydraulic sticks are all rusted tight.
I was needing a tiller Cub at the time and this one I was able to get running fairly easily.
 

dkirk

Well-known member
IHCC Supporter
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
417
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
displayname
David Kirk
David,

Some good commentary by other members. The missing aluminum on the top land is caused by hard carbon, building up on the bore surface that actually shaves off the land. On these L-head engines, the hottest area of the bore is at the block deck in the vicinity of the exhaust port. This heat is fed back into the bore, causing not only hard carbon buildup here but the bore expands inward, thus causing the piston shaving action. It looks like the top ring may be stuck in the groove and this can be contributing to the high oil consumption. A .020 rebore and oversize piston and rings should cure the problem.

Alignment of ring gaps at 120 degrees is always proper for assembly. But in a running engine, these ring gap locations continually change and probably align/mis-align many times during the life of the engine.

Another good tip is to always use a larger ring end gap on the second compression ring as compared to the top ring. Only .003 to .005 increase is all that's necessary to greatly reduce oil consumption. Example - top ring measures .012" end gap: recommended second ring gap should be .015 - .018.
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Appreciate the input David, Thanks!!
I guess now it's time to start cleaning the rest of it up.
Lookes like the steering needs some attn. as well as the axle bushings.
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Here's the scoop on the end gaps.
The top ring had .039
The 2nd ring was at .051!
That explains a lot.
I'd sure like to know who put this thing together last!!
Would it be possible they/someone/whoever used standard size rings on an O/S piston??
 

mfrade

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2000
Messages
1,723
Location
New Bedford, MA
displayname
Mike Frade
David,

Some good commentary by other members. The missing aluminum on the top land is caused by hard carbon, building up on the bore surface that actually shaves off the land. On these L-head engines, the hottest area of the bore is at the block deck in the vicinity of the exhaust port. This heat is fed back into the bore, causing not only hard carbon buildup here but the bore expands inward, thus causing the piston shaving action. It looks like the top ring may be stuck in the groove and this can be contributing to the high oil consumption. A .020 rebore and oversize piston and rings should cure the problem.

Alignment of ring gaps at 120 degrees is always proper for assembly. But in a running engine, these ring gap locations continually change and probably align/mis-align many times during the life of the engine.

Another good tip is to always use a larger ring end gap on the second compression ring as compared to the top ring. Only .003 to .005 increase is all that's necessary to greatly reduce oil consumption. Example - top ring measures .012" end gap: recommended second ring gap should be .015 - .018.

Yeah what he said! I just got home from work so I couldn't reply earlier. Sounds like you've got it well in hand now!
 

mgonitzke

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
3,501
displayname
Matt Gonitzke
Here's the scoop on the end gaps.
The top ring had .039
The 2nd ring was at .051!
That explains a lot.
I'd sure like to know who put this thing together last!!
Would it be possible they/someone/whoever used standard size rings on an O/S piston??
Yeah, I'd say that is possible. I had an 800 years ago that looked great inside but smoked like crazy. Turned out the rings had huge end gaps. A correct set of rings and a light hone and it ran great with no smoke. It is amazing what some people will do sometimes.
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Carbon build up.
It was level with the face of the valve almost 1/2 the way around
 

dkirk

Well-known member
IHCC Supporter
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
417
Location
Fond du Lac, WI
displayname
David Kirk
Looks like the previous owner re-bored it .010 over and used standard bore size rings!
 

dschwandt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,691
displayname
David Schwandt
Kinda what I thought also David.
Going to carry the frame and trans in one piece over to the house with the loader cub where I have water next week when it warms up some and give it a bath w/the power washer.
Will need a new cork gasket as well and I can't stand working on a greasy filthy piece of equipment if I don't have to.
I think I can just stand the ol' girl up on her tail to do the gasket without splitting it seeing as how the engine is out.
Film at eleven!!
 

kmcconaughey

Keeper of the Photos
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
16,166
Location
Wisconsin
displayname
Kraig McConaughey
I think I can just stand the ol' girl up on her tail to do the gasket without splitting it seeing as how the engine is out.
Film at eleven!!
Like this (Photos from Big Bob, of his 127):

Big Bobs 127.jpg
 
2


Top