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Electrolysis info

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Kendell-

It was some good reading but the guy again suggests using SS, even a SS sink for a small tank. From what I've read in several writings I wouldn't dare use SS for the anode. It remains confusing when one day you read this way and the next day you read that way and both are suppose to be for the same result. I'm starting to assume some people will just preach their way as gospel. I also think this is what keeps topics alive to the point of bordom sometimes.

Anyway, I plan to get some washing soda and see how that does.
 
Wayne:
I'm sorry, I forgot to warn...There is good info on almost all of the links, there is also some not-so-good. The most common not-so-good is the stainless steel recommendation, which when used creates a toxic solution. From the http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm web page:

"You will find that stainless steel waste electrodes will last much longer than ordinary mild steel. However, be prepared to deal with a poisonous waste, afterward. You’ll eventually notice that your solution will turn yellow and the stainless steel is disappearing. The yellow is caused by the presence of chromate. Hexavalent chromium is poisonous. Please don’t ruin your property by dumping it on the ground. Please don’t dump it down the drain."
 
BTW - in the next few weeks, after we've gotten enough comment, I hope to create a CUBFAQ. One of the intents is to create a one-stop page that will take care of most of the questions...
 
I am thinking about making a electrolisis cleaning tank by using a metal barrell on insulators for the anode. Then take a plastic barrell drilled full of small (3/8) holes and insert it into the metal barrell, to hold the parts to be cleaned. This would provide a line of sight in ever direction. I have a very old but good Miller welder with low amperage setting i could use on this. I was wondering if anyone had tried this?
 
I see three problems with that. One, you can't clean the inside of the barrel easily. It really helps to clean the electrodes frequently, as they work the best when they are bare metal. Two, it'll eat a hole through the barrel eventually, and it'll leak. Three, line of sight means nothing between the part and the electrode, so it'll only properly clean the parts that would line up with the holes in the plastic barrel. I'm not sure why you want to use a barrel to hold all the parts to be cleaned anyway, as they all have to be electrically connected together, and chain does not work for this. I tried that.
 
I agree Matt. I really can't see any good reason to use a metal container for an electrical operation. Cleaning the electrodes is an ongoing thing while using an electrolysis tank as anyone that has done this knows. In my opinion the tank is merely a component to set the operation up INSIDE. People (myself included) can really make mountains out of mole hills. It's such a simple operation but I'm not convinced people are aware of the simplicity. It takes a little thinking to make repetition easy. It's routine for me to yank the electrodes first thing and clean them. Then I check the parts. A few days this past summer I was cleaning the electrode 3 times a day. I have one lawn mower blade that's paper thin now. I hate to think what I would have had with a metal tank. And as soon as the first leak occurs you need to start all over with another tank.

I think a way to properly hang the pieces and alligator clips are the way to go using a plastic tank of some sort.
 
I've seen several cautions regarding using too high an amperage, that it might actually damage the part. A smaller welder with controlled amperage might be interesting. Wayne, I'm not sure why you'd need to be cleaning the anodes so often, in my experience, I went all summer without..I do know, if it's bubblin', its workin'..I've had personal experience with the "line of sight" problem, in reverse.. I had a set of '51 Mercury bumpers that someone else had rechromed..Every place that was curved in or recessed was lacking chrome (and copper, and nickle
bash.gif
)..

I've read that it helps to keep the solution warm...has anyone thought about how to vent a setup so it could be kept inside?? Or maybe it'd be smarter to put a heating pad under it and keep it outside??
 
I had to clean my anodes often, as this is basically a reverse plating rig. All the crap that was on the part winds up on the anodes, and the current draw (and cleaning speed) suffer as a result. Every 4 hours or so of operation, I would remove the anode, scrape off the accumulation with a razor blade, and then grind the scale off to expose shiny new metal. I could usually get away with just scraping the crap off with a razor blade, but I noticed that the anodes would stay cleaner longer if they were cleaned to bare metal. I was using a 10 amp battery charger, and the largest parts I could fit in the tank would draw a max of about 5 amps, and only for a short time...as the anodes got dirty, it would go down to 2 or 3, and then I'd clean the anodes again when it got down to 1.

I had a lot of trouble with the line-of-sight stuff too...I remember trying to clean the dash for my 100 in this, and the outside turned out great, but the inside wouldn't clean up, so I wound up very carefully sandblasting the inside of it. I also discovered that the fastest way to clean very rusty wheels was to throw them in the electrolysis tank first to clean off all the paint and big chunks of rust, and then lightly sandblast them afterwards. Saved a lot of time and sandblasting media.
 
I can't remember - did you post any pictures of your setup? I understand the process, used it quite a bit..In all of the articles I've read, I've never seen anyone stating they had to clean the anodes that often...Jerry and Matt - chime in here.. My experience is that a lot of the crap just drops off into the "muck", not everything moves across to the anodes..I'm only bringing this up so that people don't write this off as labor intensive, it's about the easiest rust removal process I've ever used.. Hang it overnite, dry it off, clean the black coating off with very little effort and it's ready to paint or wax....

Wow! we've hit an archive point on this already!!!
 
I might have...but here they are again, in case I didn't.

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Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of my larger setup, for some reason. This is the one I used on the smaller parts, and had washing soda only as the electrolyte. The second picture shows how I cleaned bolts. That's a piece of thick sheetmetal with bunch of tapped holes in it. I have two of those, and I can clean just about everything from #10 up through 1/2-13 with two of those plates. I had 3 junk mower blades that I used as electrodes, and I would have thing thing operating 12 hours a day. I would rotate the 3 blades through it, and clean them all at the end of the day. On my setup, the crap wouldn't fall off of the electrodes; it had to be scraped off.

I probably had a large accumulation of stuff for two reasons: One, I had a fairly small anode in both tanks (anode in large tank was two junk 44A blades welded together at the ends) which caused the surface area ratio of the anode to part of about 1:10, and two, my anodes were often within an inch or less of the part being cleaned. I bet if the surface area of the anode was closer to the surface area of the part that less would wind up on the anode.

Heating the water is an interesting idea...I suspect my small tank could heat itself to some degree...I remember my 2-gallon zinc plating tank being quite warm (probably ~100 degrees) after being in continuous operation all day.
 
Kendell-

I wasn't trying to imply that it was hard or labor intensive. It isn't. It does take a few minutes to get the anodes back in shape. I can't believe you have gone all summer without cleaning the electrode in your set-up. That's amazing. I don't have problems with the gunk falling to the bottom either but it does get a little nasty after a few weeks. I've also been keeping mine on all night lately because of cold temps here. It won't freeze as long as it's working.

Maybe we can get Matt to help with the process by doing a write-up on plating as well. It's sort of on topic. I mean, electrolysis is electrolysis. It's just a reversal of sorts for a different result.

Another .02......Wayne
 
I've already done that on my website...click the link in my signature line and click the "Zinc Plating" button.
 
Matt-

I remembered as soon as I read your post. It might be a good idea to add the information here to guide people in the future that want to plate.

I just went and removed an undercarriage from my tank and the rust finally turned black. I need about 10 more gallons in my tank for the larger parts. I had to clean the anodes as well. They were really crusted up.

Kendell-

You need to standardize an abbreviation for electrolysis tank too (for the final write-up). Maybe ET? Just a thought to make things easier...like po for past owner.

Later....Wayne
 
Just got caught up on reading for the first time since last night. There's been a lot of activity today. First off, let me say that I'm a newbie at this. I've only made a couple test runs. I've gotten side-tracked with some major garage cleaning and remodeling, but I'll be back at this soon. Here are my thoughts on what's currently being discussed.

First off, I'll repost this link:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

If you haven't checked it out yet, do so. The guy apparently has a lot of experience with the process and has tuned it to get the best quality results, NOT THE FASTEST RESULTS. Those of you getting lots of buildup on the electrodes because of inadequate electrode surface area or high amperage are excellent case studies in what he says.

He's restoring artifacts, so he's concerned about reclaiming as much of the surface as possible. He makes the statement that if the process moves too fast, the resulting surface is more porous. That may not be an issue for what we're doing, but I wonder if our parts will re-rust faster as a result of the increased porosity.

If what he says is true about low current resulting in essentially no build-up on the electrodes, then I'm all for giving the process time to work slowly. During my test runs I was anxious to see something happen, but letting it run slowly and forgetting about it for a while might be a good way to avoid a lot of electrode maintenance. According to what he says, the voltage should be low enough through most of the process that you don't even get bubbling.

I understand the thought process that whatever comes off the part will end up on the electrodes, but maybe that doesn't have to be true. If current density on the part is low, anything that flake off--paint or rust--will have a lower electrical charge. There's bound to be some minimum threshold of charge required to carry any particle to the electrode, such that below that threshold the particle will settle to the bottom of the tank. Following that same thought process, more distance between the part and electrode should allow more particles to settle out.

On line of sight, I think there may be two issues at play here. Line of sight is a problem, but that could be overcome in most cases by suspending another electrode inside or over or under the part. The other issue is charge repulsion on adjacent surfaces.

In '95, the company I worked for supplied center blanks and spun rims to aftermarket wheel manufacturers. We had just added some new steel wire manufacturing capabilities for a DOD contract and were looking for additional markets. About 2 weeks before the SEMA show, someone got the idea to make a custom tailgate for the then relatively new and radically different Dodge Ram to send to the show. I designed it and a couple of our maintenance guys built it. It had a minimal sheet metal frame that matched the adjoining contours of the truck and the center of the tailgate was relatively open to allow air to pass through. The opening housed a grid of 5/16" steel wire that provided enough strength hold a couple hundred pounds. Instead of a plain square grid, it had assymetrical sweeping curves similar to the lines of the bedside. We decided to chrome plate the whole thing before sending it to Vegas to be installed on a truck in the Weld Wheel booth. We had a shop in Indianapolis do the chrome plating. The results looked great from a few feet away, but where the wires passed into the sheetmetal frame the chrome had a yellow tint. The chromer told us we would have been better off to plate the grid separately and then bolt it into the frame because the similar charges have a tendency to repel each other in the sharp corners. The result was poor plating in those areas.

In our case, I'd expect poor rust removal in similar areas. I'd also expect that lower current, and therefore lower overall charge density, would lessen the problem.

Sorry for rambling,
Jerry
 
TSP is a good electrolyte. You have to get the real TSP in the powdered form not the liquid TSP substitute. Parts don't seem to flash rust when using TSP. It must leave some phosphate on the parts which deters the rust. I'll never go back to washing soda.
 
Kendell-

I was just reviewing some of the electrolysis info and noticed something interesting. In the website you gave back on the 21st of Dec. in the third paragraph the guy states, "The part with the negative charge attempts to collect ions from the positively charged piece. The result is that the negatively charged piece (the anode) decays, while the positively charged piece (the cathode) is cleaned of all corrosion."
Isn't this backwards or have I missed something along the way? If this is in fact wrong, it ought to be cleared up to avoid confusion. Also, I have stated in an earlier post that the solution wouldn't freeze while "working" but I found that depends on the amount of current. I had my tank freeze the other day but I had a small current at the time for a small piece. I have since put a light right above the water which solved the freezing problem. I would guess the guys further north will have a better chance at freezing with the colder temps.

I have found that electrolytic rust removal IS a science and electrolite concentration and current are critical for proper rust removal. I have had pieces come out looking like they did when I put them in. I can't explain it because other pieces have come out black like they should. I assume it has something to do with the metal make-up even though I only deal with plain steel on both the anode and the part to be cleaned.

I will be looking forwrd to any comments...Wayne
 
Wayne:
Electrons flow from the negative source to the positive source, but as long as people are following the instructions and connecting the work to the negative power source as instructed, the issue of electron flow seems moot... (I didn't write that article and to tell you the truth I haven't worried about the covalence and the sharing of electrons between atoms since high school chemistry
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As I've mentioned before, one of the prime issues seems to be control of the current source, bigger not always being better and faster not always giving the best results..

As far as the use of TSP, common "TSP" these days is really mostly sodium carbonate, not trisodium phosphate which is the same component in the laundry soda that's recommended..
 
Here's the reason for my "overkill" in the construction of my tank parts support. This is the first wheel weight I've done using this method. The weights are a real pita to sand or brush with sandblasting probably being best way to really clean them up.
184571.jpg

I'm now using a 12v car battery connected directly to the tank and a charger connected to the battery. I read somewhere it delivers a more pure (purer?) voltage and allows for a better job. I also added a second anode to increase conductivity. It'll probably remain in there for two days and two anode cleanings.
 
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