Electrolysis info

[kide]

I'll start a thread here and later in the day put up some links about using the electrolysis process for rust removal and cleaning. A couple of things right now:
1: DO NOT use stainless steel for the anodes and/or tank unless you're friendly with the local hazmat team - the solution you get will not be the harmless iron rich base solution you get with iron electrodes.
2: A battery charger will work, but since they do not in most cases supply pure DC, a regulated power supply or just a battery can provide better cleaning action..

Here's a few of the links where I got a lot of my info..

1: http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

2: http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tools/Electrolysis.htm

3: http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/

4: http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm

 

[kide]

I think this is the first page I ever read on the subject - the pics of the sludge almost turned me off:
http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
Here's an explanation of the problem with Stainless steel anodes
http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm
Big stuff to clean? here's an example from Bill's page about cleaning a large trailer frame..
http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm

More reading:
http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html
http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/other-articles/467718-rust-removal-electrolysis.html
http://www.rickswoodshopcreations.com/Miscellaneous/Rust_Removal.htm
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/hotnews/0705rc_electrolytic_rust_removal/index.html#

Note that I'm not embedding the links to the web pages like we usually do to make it easier to see which site it is..
I can't find the pics of my setup - I'll go get the camera out and take new ones..

 

[dtanner]

Kendell Ide
You did a great job.thanks for sharing that info.I will give that a try here. But which method do you use? It seems to me that a adjustable DC power supply would be the the thing to find. Later Don T

 

[dross]

What is the opening measure on one of those blue plastic barrels (55 gal?). I was wondering if you can dip a, dissambled, 42 inch ci deck?

 

[wshytle]

Dave-

I just measured mine and it's about 22". I did cut the top off because it had a shoulder plus it would be too tall with the trellis I have. I would imagine you could do half of the big parts and just turn them around. I've heard of people using kiddie pools for large pieces too.

Good luck...Wayne

 

[dross]

A kiddy pool was accually one idea me an anouther guy had. I was going through some links last night, a guy built a pool big enough for a trailer.

 

[wshytle]

I saw that in one of the sites Kendell posted. I think for something that big it's sandblasting time. I bet I could have cleaned it 4 times for the money that guy invested. Or I could have just gone uptown to the corner where the Mexicans for hire hang out.

 

[dross]

Wayne, I sandblasted every piece of a snowblower and I think my sandblaster is going to get dedicated to a cabinet for small parts. Feeding it with two air compressors helped (11 cfm @ 90 psi) but my set up, (1/4" nozzle, siphon feed) just doesn't/can't pass enough media to be fast. Yes a bigger sandblaster would be cool but that would take a bigger air compressor and between the money to get the equipment big enough to do it and the mess, mabey it's time to try something else. If you let something soak for 4 hours you check on it but you can do other stuff too. If you sandblast for 4 hours thats all you do. It just makes to much sense not to at least try electrolysis.

 

[wshytle]

Dave-

I agree, sandblasting is simply a mess and if one was to do it for 4 hours he would have sand in places unimaginable. I also assume the guy with the trailer has several other large things to clean. Another idea for something the size of a deck would be a discarded bathtub lined with plastic. I'm thinking about getting my stick welder into the picture instead of just battery chargers. I'm thinking it will cut down the time some.

Later...Wayne

 

[jmuncie]

Here's a website that has helped me that I don't see listed yet:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

This guy has a little bit different philosophy because he's cleaning old artifacts. He's paid more attention to the quality of the surface left behind by the process. He's using a current limited power supply and running the process slower. The advantages appear to be 1) a better surface, 2) longer electrode life, and 3) less bubbling, and 4) less mess in the tank.

Jerry

 

[jmuncie]

This was my initial attempt at the process before building a rack to hold a power supply and hang parts from. Others have posted that they liked my electrode mounting arrangement. I'll agree that it looks nice, but don't go this route. It's a pain to remove the electrodes for cleaning so I'll be making some changes.

My electrode surface area is adequate, but more would be better because reduced current density pays off in longer lasting electrodes.

I'm most likely going to be putting 3/8" bolts through the barrel wall the heads on the outside. I'll land my wires between the head and a jamb nut. Then place a washer on and stick it through the barrel. On the inside I'll have a washer and another nut to lock it in place. The new electrodes will most likely be flat plates 4-6" wide by the full tank depth with 1 mounting hole at the top center. The electrodes will fit over the end of the bolt and get secured with a wing nut on the inside. This will take all the wiring off the electrodes and make the electrodes easily removable for cleaning. I'll post pics when I make the modifications.

Jerry

 

[dross]

Wayne, The battery charger we experimented with was old, rated at 10 amps and I think we burned out the automatic trip reset. The last time I saw it run it was putting out about 15 amps and cycling on and off. I have since read where you can control amps with how strong your mix is, one guy controled amperage with how much of the anode is exposed in the mix. When it worked it worked really good. Where I'm at right now is, the last time I tried it cost an old batttery charger, I don't want the next try costing it's replacement. The real pain is I did this successfully several years ago, a one time shot that worked, then I set one up for a friend on a small scale in preparation for a larger set-up and failed. I think what I need to do is quit reading and talking and get back to trying.

 

[dross]

This isn't the site I mentioned on the main forum but it does mention the copper problem. Says the copper will migrate if contacted with the solution.
www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/electrolsis_explanation.phtml
This does suggest using stainless steel, I don't.

 

[kide]

I finally took some fresh pics of my small setup. This was for parts of the Atlas/Craftsman 6x18 bench lathe that I may get done in the next year. I had really good performance with this and both a larger battery charger and then a regulated 3 amp 12 volt power supply for finer cleaning. The anodes I set up were scrap plate and a ring that just fit inside a drywall bucket. I welded two studs on the top of the ring for the positive (+) connection. The top of the bucket fits back on with just two holes drilled in it, so I can leave it setting outside without getting junk in it.
The insulating bridge is a piece of 2"x2" recycled plastic construction material cut to fit the top of the bucket.

 

[wshytle]

I added another electrode to my tank and it has 10 amps going to it now from a 12v charger. It bubbles like crazy but it seems to take a real long time for the rust to turn black. I am now wondering if the recipe for the solution is strong enough or too strong. I have "cooked" parts for over 24 hours and the rust still remains a rust color.

I'm not trying to speed the process; I'm wondering though if there's something I can do to get this rust turning black like it should. I use TSP only so maybe a little washing soda? I plan to try some baking soda later today added to the TSP to see if that helps. I understand you need to actually bake the baking soda first. I'm also wondering if I just have too much TSP to begin with. The tank now has about 20 gallons of water and about a pound of TSP.

Any thoughts? I've been cooking parts all night to keep the tank from freezing as well.

Thanks to all in advance....Wayne

 

[kide]

Wayne:
1: Verify polarity. The positive cable goes to the tank anodes, not the piece being worked on. Check to ensure the charger is actually providing DC with a VOM. Try putting a 12 volt battery on the charger and then running the cables to the tank- that way you'll be getting pretty near pure dc..
2: Go to the store and get <u>washing soda</u>, not baking soda, dump the TSP solution and start over. The solution strength of about a tablespoon per gallon has been stated in several of the instruction websites as optimum - that increasing it does not improve the results.

This is not a magic process - with the right solution and a DC power source it's pretty near foolproof...

 

[mgonitzke]

You don't have to dump the TSP...it works. I had 30 gallons of water, and about 2 lbs. of TSP and maybe another pound of washing soda in mine, and it worked great.

 

[kide]

Matt:
I cannot find any evidence that trisodium phosphate is an electrolyte. TSP has been recommended in some of the websites as an additive for degreasing, but the basis (not a pun) of the electrolytic rust removal process requires an electrolyte to promote electron movement through the water. TSP isn't needed for the rust removal ...I stand by my recommendation to get washing soda into the solution..

 

[wshytle]

Thanks guys-

That really clears things up.....?

Matt, I am keeping the TSP and Kendell, I'm going to add some washing soda. I'm well aware of the anode and cathode polarity. That's not the issue at all. I do plan on getting a dedicated power source to use instead of the chargers. I'm wondering now if anyone on the forum has ever built one suitable. I'd sure like to see the write-up. I'm not very electrical or electronic but I know there's only so much to a transformer and building a power supply. I have a Lincoln stick welder, AC/DC, but I don't need to clean parts quite that fast.

Thanks for the input....Wayne

 

[kide]

Wayne:
Just remembered that I forgot to remind you... a lot of the newer battery chargers won't work without sensing the presence (voltage) of a battery. Ahh never mind, you said it was drawing 10 amps....
Here's more good reading:
http://www.armurerieduroi.com/pages/lathe/lathe_electrolysis.html

Also - I've read that a lot of the TSP <u>replacements</u> (TSP isn't all that welcome anymore) do have sodium carbonate as their active ingredient (same as laundry soda..).