Electrolysis info

[tmarkle]

Kendell,
The liquid TSP is sodium carbonate. The stuff I got is the powdered form which is still trisodium phosphate. Home Depot only had the liquid but I found the powdered version in the paint dept at Lowes.

 

[wshytle]

I have a question about hydrogen build up. I made this "mini-tank" using an old DC power supply. It is intended for very small parts and it's currently set up in my house. My question is how concerned do I need to be about the hydrogen given off and building up? I have a fan blowing in the room to disperse the gases. I don't want to blow my house up but I've read the amount of hydrogen is small and I figure the fan will take care of the rest.

This is a plastic hospital wash basin with about a gallon of water. I used baking soda here and it really bubbles away when connected.

Thanks....Wayne

 

[kide]

When that end of the house starts lifting off, start worrying.. Seriously, if you can smell it (rotten egg smell) you're getting too much concentration, but this is generating about the same amount as charging a lead-acid battery..

In doing a CYA for the forum, I'd recommend that you follow the recommendations for doing this in a well ventilated area, away from any ignition source...

 

[wshytle]

I'm getting a little egg smell and the fan seems to keep any concentration from building up but I've decided to move it to the porch. It's a real small set-up and works great. That's why I wanted to try it in the house. I could get a lot of small parts done regardless of the weather but I guess some things are just meant to be done outside. Plus I live alone so it bothers no one but me (and maybe my dog).

Thanks for the input....Wayne

 

[fcurrier]

Hey, Wayne, maybe it's the dog? Ours can make some funny smells now and then. As a matter of fact, so can I!

 

[wshytle]

Hi Frank-

In this case I can't blame the dog. He does make some funny noises at times. Sometimes those funny noises lead to a smell that would knock a buzzard off a crap wagon.

The mini-tank sort of calmed down so I haven't put it outside yet. I think it's a good use for some of the old transformers I have from phones, etc. They seem to work just fine, especially on small parts. I also used baking soda because I'm out of TSP and it seems to be doing a good job.

 

[jmuncie]

I'm not sure what you're smelling, but it's not hydrogen. No matter what gas you're talking about, it seems like someone in the crowd always says "Smells like rotten eggs." I've played a lot with electrolysis over the years for the purpose of making hydrogen and oxygen to play with and I've never smelled either one. Quick Google search for hydrogen odor yields "colorless and odorless" from multiple sources. There are a lot of hydrogen compounds that smell like rotten eggs. Got any sulfur in your water?

I'm the crazy guy that will hold a match at the surface of the water next to the hydrogen bubbles...sounds like Rice Krispies. In general it takes a long time to build up dangerous levels, especially in the case of rust removal because you should be running low current. If hydrogen does accumate, it will do so at high points. Healthy respect for what you're dealing with is good. Paranoia isn't necessary.

Jerry

 

[wshytle]

I guess my nose was playing tricks on me. There was never an overwhelming smell, just faint. It was either my "paranoia" with my experimenting or the fact I mixed some leftover beans in the dogs food.

 

[kide]

Jerry:
I plead guilty, since what you smell from a lead acid battery charging (hydrogen plus??) DOES smell like rotten eggs. I agree that generation of PURE hydrogen gas results in an "colorless and odorless" gas, but we aren't generating a pure gas AFAIK....and my experience with electrolysis, using well water, ferrous anodes and cathodes and laundry soda generated a gas that stunk.....bottom line is that it can be dangerous, if it accumulates in a pocket near an ignition source.

 

[kweaver]

Whatever happened to that electrolysis post I made a long time ago ...

In the palm of the Mitten - Where's the Electrolysis FAQ ???

Wayne - Did you ever get a true dc supply ?

All chargers that I have ever taken a part and welders too are only half wave not full wave rectified. You get about 50/50 output.

Full wave and filtered is easy to do.


Somebody mentioned using a small welder. Welders use anywhere from about 32 - 76 open circuit volts then the voltage pulls down as the resistance increases. Unless you have a TIG welder with good controls I don't think you'll have much luck in controlling your output.
My TIG will turn down to 5 amps and I think (been a while) puts out 36 open volts. (I know it turns down to low to weld aluminum pop cans !)

 

[wshytle]

Ken-

I assume you're talking about the small electrolysis tank I made. I just use the charger I dedicated to the system. I use a 12v car battery with my big tank outside. I put the charger on the battery and come back in 10 or 12 hours to clean anodes. I used the crap out of the small one inside this winter. I don't know where the initial smells came from but it wasn't the tank set-up; it was probably the dog. He died in February so I can't blame him any longer.

 

[kweaver]

Wayne - You can throw a cap across the charger leads and filter it some which would help on the cleaning time. Put 2 on parallel and make it better. Full wave bridge and filtered would be best but you'd have to do that inside the case. Radio Shack capacitor

 

[kide]

Kentuck: what's the use of a FAQ, seems nobody can find those buttons (just kidding, Charlie - whatever happened to the "how to post a picture update I did ??)

I was kind of waiting until there was quite a bit of info posted before seeing about a faq...I will note that I've seen more lately about "low and slow" to get a better finish - low amperage for as long as a week resulting in clean surface without black gunk to remove..

 

[jmuncie]

Haven't had time to mess with the electrolysis tank in quite a while. Tonight I made a new electrode to get line-of-sight all the way around the part. It's a 1/8" x 18" x 69" plate rolled to fit snug against the wall of the barrel. I'll be using the tank on good parts for the first time this weekend. I'll post the results.

Jerry

 

[lhinds]

Jerry i like your idea on that. I made a tank last week and the electrodes are way to small.I cleaned some very rusty chrome wheels and thought i was going to have to clean the electrodes before they were finished. They will be easy to change though.

 

[jmuncie]

Here's a picture of what the whole setup has grown into.

The barrel is sitting on a raised platform that provides a mounting location and stability for the frame. I still need to add wires for additional parts and improve the part hangers. Right now I'm just tying the nylon strings through bolt holes.

Hanging at the back of the tank is a funnel made from the top of a washer fluid bottle. I fold a paper towel into a cone and place it in that funnel. I use the top of a second washer fluid bottle with the cap in place as a dipper to skim floating garbage off the tank and filter it in the funnel.

I like the rolled plate electrode. The rods I started with tended to develop scaly rust pretty quickly and generate a lot of floating garbage. The rolled plate with its low current density doesn't have much trouble with either.

Here's a before and after shot of one of the better successes I've had. This part was in pretty good shape, but it had drawn moisture and rusted lightly on the exposed face. There was scaly rust in the middle between the holes. This was in the tank for 6 hours, current controlled to 0.3 A. Voltage stayed around 5.6 for the whole run.

The finished part came out of tank with a dark gray haze over the unpainted surface. I made a light pass over the whole thing with a brass "toothbrush" and rinsed it in clean water. All the rust was gone when it came from tank. The brush was used to break up the film on the surface and remove loose paint before rinsing. You can still see a dark area where the scale was originally, but the machining marks are still present after the scale was removed. My goal with this part was only to remove the rust. I didn't care about paint removal.

So far, I think it's great for removing rust. I'm not impressed with it's ability to remove paint. Quality of rust removal results is better at low power levels and speed doesn't seem to be sacrificed. Paint removal takes higher current density and the results vary. Older paint which I'm confident has a high lead content, doesn't come off easily. It cleans the surface of the paint, but doesn't remove the paint completely. I suspect this has something to do with electrical conductivity of the leaded paint.

I need to get my blast cabinet built for paint removal.

Jerry

 

[wshytle]

Jerry-

As far as the paint goes, if there is rust under the paint it will come off. That's one of the things I really like about electrolysis. In the past I have just cleaned the part after "cooking" and left the remaining paint. I just feather the edges and paint over it. It works fine.

Nice outfit you have there.

 

[cmiracle]

Just finished my first attempt at Electrolysis, it turned out well.

I first tried an old, very rusty chisel, which was completly cleaned in only 3 hours. I took it out and wiped it off, very nice.
I dumped the solution and mixed another for my grandfather's old Boy Scout hatchet, and it took much longer- I left it in for about 36 hours, having to clean my two anodes once. It came out with some of the more worn areas already shiny bare metal, with no black deposit. I took fine steel wool and Dawn to the rest to get most of the black off. What is the best method for the black deposit removal?
After I perfect this, I'll derust the chromed deck-lift arm on my 1200, and restore a small cast-iron Pet stove.

 

[fcurrier]

Wayne: It would work, to an extent. The tank would be the negative electrode and the positive would have to be carefully placed into the filler hole. The gas tank itself would be the electrolysis tank.

 

[aschumacher]

Hey Frank...

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