Archive through September 28, 2009

[mwhoward]

See, you mention anything with a belt or a briggs and the thread disapears....

 

[rwilke]

Lewis P.,
Thanks for your information regarding with/without balance gear Cub data!

Your 12HP Kohler was built in 1967 and was intended for Tractor use.
Your 123 Cub build date was September, 1967.
-- Does it have the long dipstick tube behind the starter/generator?
-- Is the engine data on a sticker or riveted plate?


Fellas,
I think I'll start building another data chart in regards to balance gears or not.
We know that balance gears were installed into 10HP, 12HP, 14HP and 16HP engines.
Maybe we could get a better idea as to what years they were installed by gathering data from known combinations that had or didn't have balance gears.
Of course, I'll post/share the data chart as it comes in. I'll start with Steve S and Lewis P data.
If anyone else would like to participate by sharing their information, please post:

1) Cub model # (123, 125, etc.)
2) Cub serial #
3) Kohler engine model # (K301A, K321AS, etc.)
4) engine Spec # (4759B, 6099A, etc.)
5) engine serial #
6) Type or # of dipstick tubes (dual tubes, long on RH side, short on LH side)
7) Type of engine data label (sticker or riveted).

Ryan Wilke

 

[dross]

Dennis thats how it was it was explained to me Drive tires pull driven tires get pushed.
Ryan, I think it was redneck shorthand for primary that stuck.

 

[mgonitzke]

Ryan-

Well, since every NF I've owned has had the dipstick tube behind the S/G, and all the WFs I've had used the cam cover dipstick (and therefore should have had balance gears from previous discussions on this subject), I'm gonna say anything pre-WF probably doesn't have balance gears, and everything 1x8/9 forward does until they either quit using them again, or started building Magnums, whichever came first. I wonder if the 1282 and 1210/1211 engines have balance gears?

I'm thinking that's the general synopsis, with a few exceptions near the time when they started using balance gears.

 

[thenrie]

Questions:

What does "ported hydro" mean, and does a 1650 have it?

How do I add hydraulic ports for the rear (for a hydraulic operated dump bed or backhoe) and to the front (for a loader) to a 1650? Does it require a separate hydraulic pump driven off the front PTO?

What does "dual Hydraulic" mean respecting a 1650, and how do I get it?

What are the pros-and-cons of a Class 0 3-pt lift as opposed to the standard sleeve lift on the Cub?

Do any models have a rear PTO?

Why are garden tractors so much fun to play with?

Tony

 

[thenrie]

One more:

What do "balance gears" do (or not do) and why does everyone want to remove them?

 

[mstetar]

tony i can answer a few of your questions,
no. 1 because tractors are just awsome!
no. 2 ballance gears were originaly intended to keep vibrations in the engine down by off setting the weight of the crank (i think) but over time the crapy bearings in them wear out an they can break off and kill the internels of the motor or even crack a cast engine block. Im pretty sure even kohler tells you to remove them!
No.3 all gear drive models can be outfitted with a rear PTO however there virtually useless, they dont spin very fast.
Keep on Cubben!

 

[kide]

Wow.......sure some gud 'nuff info there....

 

[kmcconaughey]

Tony, a ported hydro means it's capable of having hydraulic lift, your 1650 should have come with hydraulic lift as standard and if so it has the ported hydro. To add rear hydro ports you would have to add a second valve and install the plumbing. Front ports (aka "dual ports") were optional on a 1650, however, even if your 1650 had front ports, they would not be capable of operating a loader. A loader requires two circuits, one for lifting and one for the bucket, secondly, the hydraulic lift on a 1650 does not have enough capacity, both fluid and pressure. Most if not all the loaders on garden tractors have their own self contained hydraulic systems which are driven off of the front PTO. CAT-0 3 point looks cooler

and has more adjust ability. Rear PTO was not available for the 1650. Your last query in that post is self explanatory...

Balance gears are prone to coming apart and breaking the block creating a hole that is commonly referred to as a window. Better to remove them before that happens.

 

[thenrie]

Ah...never mind on that last one about the balance gears. Found it.

They dynamically balance the engine, because the crankshaft counterbalance weights were insufficient to adequately balance the crank. They help the engine run smoother, which should help it last longer between overhauls (good

)...except for the fact that the roller bearing they run on can go bad and cause inside engine parts to come outside the engine, unexpectedly (bad

). So, many people take the balance gears out of the engine as a preventative measure. Right?

 

[kmcconaughey]

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. This was in a 149 parts tractor that I have. The balance gears let go and knocked the cam through the side of the block.

 

[thenrie]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. Sorry about posting re the gears before digging a bit deeper.

Kraig, I found my forlorn 1650 in the weeds at a house I bought. Thankfully, the engine runs fine, to my disappointment there is no lift. Thanks for the info on the 3-pt.

The hydraulic pump is there, but I don't know how to tell whether it is "dual ported" or not. Do you have a picture you could post? I suspect it is not, since there is only one control lever, but I'd like to know if it is an option without changing the pump. If it is just a matter of adding a valve, that is the way I'll go.

PF Engineering (pfengineering.com) indicates the pump on a Cub puts out plenty of power for a front bucket (5-700psi I think), but insufficient volume, so they use the upright supports for the loader frame as a reservior. I'm not sure whether the dual-port Cub pump would handle both the lift and tilt functions, or whether a separate pump would be required.

I'm having fun just thinking and scheming about it. I just love taking things that don't work and making them work again. This old Cub 1650 is gonna be one fine tool one day soon.

 

[thenrie]

Ooh. Nice hole. I suspect it doesn't run very well like that.

 

[kmcconaughey]

If your 1650 has the ported pump it should look like this (note the hydraulic lines coming from it):

Here's a non-ported pump:

 

[aaytay]

Tony-
P.F. Engineering is right. The pump on your 1650 will put out enough pressure, but not enough volume of fluid.

A loader would probably work if it was connected to your 1650's pump, but it would be very slow. Changing or adding to the fluid reservior will not help this. You need a pump capable of pushing more fluid through it. Think of the pump acting as a funnel. You just need a bigger funnel.

Kraig-
Who's tractor is that ported hydro on?

 

[kmcconaughey]

A Ported Hydro pump would always have the two ports (supply and return). "dual ported" as you put it is actually "dual control" (aka dual circuits) and would have two valves and two handles (two ports per circuit, "supply" and "return") and if it had the second set of ports they would be visible on the front of the tractor.

Dual handles:

Front ports:

Art, that belongs to Chris Bennett.

 

[kide]

I don't want to start the balance gear debate again, but you gotta admit that based on the appearance of that cam, the problem wasn't the balance gear bearings, they were a victim of the prior owner's owner's negligence. I agree that any engine that has had that poor maintenance should have the balance gears removed, along with the keys to the ignition.. These engines do not have oil filters or full pressure oil systems - if you don't perform proper PM on 'em they're gonna

BTW - I'd still like to see a copy of the Kohler Service bulletin that recommended REMOVAL of the balance gears posted.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Kendell, I bought that 149 from "Big John" I believe it sat that way for a few years before I bought it. I got it in 2003 when Ryan Mull hauled it from Indiana for me when he drove up for WFM Spring Tillage Day. Here's the photo "Big John" sent me before I bought it. In case you were wondering, I bought it mainly for the ported pump and lift parts.

 

[thenrie]

OK, so my pump is ported, but not dual-control. Can I add dual controls, so I can add front/rear ports, or do I have to go with a different pump altogether? By the way, the pics are great. Thanks much.

 

[thenrie]

Aaytay, is there a particular make/model of accessory hydraulic pump you would recommend for a 1650 that would adequately handle a bucket of the size PF has designed for garden tractors?