Archive through January 08, 2005

[dbellamy]

Charlie would that be an 800 scout?
My scout & 1x9 are freakin out we don't get snow usualy here in Vic but we got a blast in the last 24 hrs 8 in or so, of course I'd die for a blade or thrower today as I'm the only one on my road & hasn't been plowed & the scouts not going anywhere

 

[tmanley]

I was watching 'Classic Tractor Fever' yesterday on RDFTV, and they rate these big tractors in belt HP and drawbar HP. How do they know how much drawbar hp something has? Is this a factor of wheel HP?

 

[smckenzie]

I might have a condensor problem with my 169 Tom's problem sounds familiar. Stupid question - are all condensors the same or is the one on my Cub unique so I have to go to a dealer?

Thanks

Scott

 

[bwatson]

Torin, the University of Nebraska tested tractors for many years starting in 1920. There were more tractor companies than Carter had pills back then. Some were good most were not. Nebraska passed the test law and required every make of tractor to be sold in Nebraska have at least 1 service station. Testing showed what any particular model was capable of. For the actual testing they used a large generator belted and later through the pto to load the engine up to its rated power. For drawbar testing they used what ever they could find in the early years like old steam engines running the steam engine like a compressor for load. They devised a method of calculating fuel use/work done to compare fuel consumption from the smallest to the largest called horsepower hours per gallon. Some of the numbers for the Farmall Cub in '56 were 10.39hp on the belt pulley with 9.38 hp hr/gal, 7.68hp at the drawbar with 8.54 hp hr/gal. It would have been neat to see what a Cub Cadet would have done on drawbar tests against some of the other brands. Incidentaly, the smallest tractor tested was the Choreboy model B powered by a Clinton B-700 2hp engine. Several walk behind models were tested. If you can find a copy of Nebraska Tractor Tests Since 1920, get one. Very interesting to see who did, could do, and used how much fuel.

 

[bwatson]

I probably should have said the higher the number on hp hr/gal the higher the fuel efficiency. Back in 1932 the average fuel numbers were between 6 and 8 hp hr/gal. When the first diesel Catepillar was tested its numbers were 13.87hp hr/gal.

 

[tmanley]

That is interesting. I assume they stopped testing since they didn't test the cubs?

 

[digger]

Don B,
Nope it's a Cub 800. I've been on the guy for 2 years to sell it, and he finally gave in, grin
The wife has been on me to get a Scout for a while now. Nick Q. has a supper little Scout for sale that's in great condition, but I've got to find one for me to work on before I buy.

 

[bwatson]

Scott, you can get points and condensers at Napa and probably most other auto parts stores for your C.C. As far as I know all of the battery type ignition systems on Kohler engines use the same condenser. You can use a condenser from most anything and your engine will run. Not using the correct one may shorten the life of the points though. A condenser is nothing more than a poor quality dry cell battery also known as a capcitor. They are rated in micro farads or uf for short. The higher the rating the larger the storage capacity. The condenser provides a place for the electricity flowing in a circuit a momentary place to go when the points open reducing arcing. In mechanical terms think of it like what happens when you're using a blade on the front of your Cub and you hit a crack in the pavement or something else that won't move. The spring trip on the blade allows the blade to swing down giving the power from the tractor somewhere else to go momentarily keeping damage to a minimum. The condenser also gives a little boost in charging the coil for the next spark. When the blade swings back up you get that little bit of stored power back. Clear as mud?

 

[bwatson]

Torin, I think they have discontinued testing tractors at Nebraska. I don't know for sure. My book lists everything through 1983. The testing law's mission was to expose the poor quality tractors being sold then and force the builders to provide service after the sale. Nowadays, if somebody is selling junk they won't be around long. Either word of mouth, lawsuits, or a combination of the two will get them today.
With testing also came valuable info that manufacturers used to help design future models. In '34 Allis-Chalmers was the first company to offer rubber tires on a tractor. Nebraska tested their WC model first on steel wheels and then on rubber tires. With the same tractor each time, fuel usage came in at 5.62 hp hr/gal on steel wheels. On rubber it came in at 8.18. A rubber tire also offered better traction. Figure that reduced fuel usage along with increased speed and the couple hundred bucks different in price could be very quickly made up.
When you think about it, when you take your Cub to a tractor pull, you're doing most of what they did at Nebraska. The big difference being that they didn't load the tractor to the point it could no longer pull the load. They kept track of how much load was applied. Since horsepower is a mathmatical equation of work done in a specific amount of time, it was pretty easy to figure. Under drawbar testing they would load the tractor to the maximum amount it could pull. Then they reduced the load to 80% of maximum and ran 10 hours that way to make sure the tractor could do it over long periods of time. They had a wheel counter on the tractor and one on the test car so they could measure drive wheel slippage. When they figured the maximum pull they added whatever amount of weight it took to achieve that figure on standard equipment tires. In some tests they would change tire sizes and show the differences made in fuel usage and drawbar hp.

 

[bwatson]

Tractor models tested at Nebraska were submitted by their manufacturers. IH could have tested the Cub Cadet if they wanted to. They probably figured they didn't need to. Since it was unlikely that some one would use a Cub Cadet like a farm tractor all day pulling a plow, they probably figured it was good enough as is and didn't really need improvement in the draft department. IH, with the exception of the 560, enjoyed a reputation of well built machines back then.

 

[thoffman]

Brian/Torin,
I don't think they ever tested the lawn and garden tractor at Nebraska.

 

[wrdecker]

Digger, Thanks for the belt info, and you certainly are right about the mounting of the QA on the 123, needed 3 hands to do it, and had a sore back afterwards. The bolt holes lined up fine at the same spots as the CC, so fit wasn't a problem, but I had to pull the bracket on the right side that was used to hold the chute control off, the long "ear" on the QA overlapped it, but as the QA has a bracket right on the mount to hold the chute rod support, not a big deal. My old CC42 worked well, but had split about 1 1/2" along each side at the ends, and the cutting edge had bent downward about 90 degrees all the way across the bottom edge after forgetting about the new sidewalk that the village put in, with a 2" lip in my driveway. It could have been repaired, but before I took it to the welder, I found the QA locally in great shape for cheap. Another question, will the gearbox, shaft, etc. off the CC swap to the QA ? I'm wondering if I should keep it for parts, or pass it along to someone who needs CC parts or wants to fix it up.

 

[wheinsohn]

They are still testing tractors today according to the Nebraska testing standards. Test stations are set up in Nebraska as well as foreign countries. It is mainly set up to test tractors over a certain horsepower but any company can submit any unit for testing.

 

[digger]

William D,
You can pretty much use everything off the CC on the QA with the exception of the gear box mounting plate and a few other minor details,from what I've seen.
There's not much difference between the two.

 

[dvan]

This snow thrower had been buried in the weeds for awhile. The guy I bought a 1450 & 125 off of through this in. It had been on a cub cadet at one time. I was wondering if it is a IH thrower or one someone fabricated to fit on a cub. There are no tags anywhere. It does not have a gearbox, just a shaft with a pully on one end and a sprocket with a chain that drives the auger. The pullys on the sub frame are froze up, but the auger spins free.
Thanks for any help.

 

[dkamp]

Torin- As Brian brushed-upon, drawbar HP has many factors, and the Nebraska conferance really was a starting attempt at putting realistic comparison standards to ratings.

Of the factors of drawbar horsepower, the first is obviously engine and transmission ability, both in developing torque at a given RPM, and doing it for a 'continous duty'. Lack of effective cooling efficiency, or lack of durability and lubrication determines wether an engine and driveline can produce continous-duty power.

From that point, power is turned into tractive effort, which is to say, drawbar power. Tractive effort is the machine's ability to apply steady drawbar pull on agricultural soil, wherein several factors apply. One of which is machine weight, both on driven wheels, and undriven wheels, next is soil cohesivity (determined by mix of sand, clay, dirt, moisture), and last is wheel contact width, diameter, and tread shape. Of course, this includes undriven wheels and their loads (rolling resistance) and driven (again, rolling resistance, but also tractive effort). If you'd like a copy of a doctoral paper on development of tractive effort on soil, I'll Email you a PDF directly.

Nebraska tests actually accomplish several things:
1) Applies all tractors to a common baseline for comparison
2) Proves continuous-duty-cycle output
3) Demonstrates fuel efficiency under baseline conditions
4) Demonstrates relative capacity for PTO-driven (belt or PTO) load
5) Demonstrates relative capacity for ground-engaged (drawbar) loads.

A simple illustration would be to put a N9 tractor on the field... test it, Then exchange the 9N's four for a flathead V8 in same tractor, in same field. This would disclose that although the N had more engine horsepower, the drivetrain was still limited in capacity, the tractor's rolling resistance went up (more load on front wheels) while tractive effort went down (no more weight on rear wheels), it would also demonstrate that the N's cooling system wasn't capable of keeping up with the requirements of the V8, and it would also likely show that the V8 consumed more fuel in the process of developing less drawbar power.

They're still doing testing- if you'd like to look at their website: http://tractortestlab.unl.edu/

 

[digger]

Doug V,
It's a Haban that has been lets say slightly modifed.

 

[dkamp]

Brian-
"A condenser is nothing more than a poor quality dry cell battery also known as a capcitor."

Not true. A condensor IS a capacitor, but for a definate purpose, and for what it's worth, it costs much more, and requires more precision to manufacture one capacitor, as it does SIX dry-cell batteries. You can use a capacitor as a battery, but you can't use a battery for a capacitor.

There are MANY types of capacitors, and they all share the function of being an electron storage device. Capacitors utilize many different types of dielectrics, including air, paper, Mylar, Polyester, Mica, polycarbonates, Teflon, Tantalum, oil, and all sorts of other stuff.

Batteries, however, are chemical producers of electric charge. There are many types there, and they all utilize an electrolyte and dissimilar metals to PRODUCE an electron flow. Batteries are DC devices... capacitors, however, are both DC AND AC devices.

Scott- if you look in the Kohler Engine service manual, you'll find a very clear illustration of wether the condenser's capacity is appropriate (it shows deposition on one or the other contact as the indicator). To simplify it, just use the K-brand or cross-ref replacement.

If you SUSPECT the condenser is going bad, pull off the point cover and run the engine... if the condenser is bad, you'll likely see a continuous 'flash' across the contact points as they open and close.

 

[dvan]

Thanks Charlie, maybe that will be my next project!

 

[wrdecker]

Digger and the rest, again thanks for the info, one more blower question: How much play should I have at the sprocket end of the shaft? I see 2 adjustment bolts there, does this just adjust the chain tension? Lots of room on the bolts for adjustment, seems to me a bit too much play but I don't know where it should be as I flying w/o a manual. Thanks.