Archive through September 05, 2004

[rchristensen]

Bryan
Your right there are two pins on the left side of the drawing. It would probably help if they drew it right side up instead of the way they have it drawn. They do have the 15/32 dimension correct and the pins would be as shown except you need to realize the protruding pin would actually be down against the hydro case and not up in the air, I don't see any way to remove that pin like they suggest. Also you might hit the case and damage it if you don't have the swash plate rotated.

On mine right below that note they have an IMPORTANT note saying that some swash plates have the pin holes drilled completely through them and DO NOT drive the spring pins through the shaft and into the holes in the bottom of the swash plate. Kind of late after they have already told you to drive them through on the control shaft side.

 

[jpierson]

After about 10 minutes of use with my 149 when I goto go from forward to reverse it slams HARD into reverse. It's like I have a gear drive and just throwing out the clutch in reverse. It's like something is loose in the drveline yet I can't see anything wrong. But, when I first start it and move the 149 around it works just fine with no problems. Any ideas at all?
It also effects my hydro lift. It wont even lift my rear blade.

(Message edited by jpierson on September 05, 2004)

 

[wcompton]

Jeff-
I've got the same problem with the lift on my 169. I've tried shimming the relief spring from 700psi to 900psi (I think that's what the #'s were), and that didn't really help. THe only think I've found is that it's affected by the running temp of the oil, the first time I cleaned out under the fenders it was much better. Through trial & error I'm pretty much of the opinion that it's heat that does it. <off topic material following> In fact there's a service bulletin for a Deere 322 and 332 garden tractors for the ADDITION of a fluid cooler, and the Deere 318 already has a fluid cooler.

My problem still hasn't gone away, I'm tempted to try running a differnt fluid, maybe something like a type F transmission fluid or a low-vis hydraulic fluid. . . . . though the hydros are supposed to have been designed with HyTran in mind, other manufacturers warranty'd the transmissions with both type F and low-vis fluids so I'm assuming since they're "putting their money where their mouth is" it's acceptable.

I may find out that I'm chasing the wrong problem altogether and that it may be as simple as getting new pressure relief valves and making sure by way of o-ring kit that the lift cylinder isn't leaking too much past the piston.

 

[jpierson]

Wyatt, well I guess there is something to be said about the heat of the fluid. I don't have a hydro fan and I haven't checked the pump to see if there is alot of junk on it. Thanks for the info and i'm going out to the garage right now to look at the pump. I guess I should also visit a one of those guys above for a new fan also.
At one time you guys were talking about a cooler of some sort for the hydro fluid. What was the outcome of that? Once more question (I know get a manual and read it) what is the correct operating temp on the hydro fluid? Thanks

 

[wcompton]

Jeff-
I was looking to add a cooler, still haven't gotten to it, trying to finish my tractor for Plow Day instead. I did find a trans cooler from a late model Jeep Cherokee that I'm going to try to track down. Space is limited, and if it's going to be done, it's got to fit within the confines of the area above the flat plate covering the top of the transaxle, as far as I can see it's about the only dead space that has some airflow.

As far as temps, from what I remember on Sunstrand hydros using HyGuard (another company's fluid tradename) anything under 210/220°F is OK, 220-280°F is acceptable but probably should be cooled, above 280°F is unacceptable and is on the verge of permanent fluid damage. Don't quote me on the exact numbers, but it's something very close to that range.

 

[jpierson]

Thanks Wyatt!

 

[rkruger]

Wyatt, Us "other" guys have done some informal testing on idle pressures on 318 and 322/332 hydros of approx same hours and always the 318 with cooler will peg the needle at 700+. Most of the 332s are in the 350 to 400 range, nix on the cooler.

I don't really know why it would be that much different between a hydro with Type F and an automatic tranny in a truck, but plowing snow, we NEVER let the fluid temps get over 250 degrees. Heat kills an automatic exponentially. Most builders say 280 just cooks everything inside.

BTW, a 318 has two coolers, one mounted on either side of the driveshaft directly in front of the flywheel, pulling "cool" air from below. The 318 does NOT have a fan on the driveshaft for hydro cooling.

Very cool topic. I'll check in tomorrow

 

[wcompton]

Robb-
THanks, the #'s I'm remembering were for a service bulletin for a cooler kit for the 322/332, the coolers are long since NLA and even if they were available I'd have to buy the whold kit with lines & brackets that'd be pretty much useless to me, the cooler wasn't and isn't available seperately

One more thing that Richard C's posts about the gaskets is that what if the hydros that return fluid through the holes below the bearing, and those that return THROUGH the bearing run at differnt temps? Reason I wonder is because the bearing could act as a fluid return diffuser, reducing the amount of aeration to the fluid . . . . . fluid that contains air won't cool as well.

 

[aaytay]

Wow, this topic is really neat..

Robb brings up an interesting point about the heat comparisons between a GT and an auto tranny in a truck.

FWIW, my Suburban came from the factory with a tranny-temp gauge. After buying it, I was curious to see what the gauge would show. I can tell you that it normally hovers around the 180deg mark during "everyday driving" <font size="-2">(If there is such a thing in a 4-ton vehicle)</font> and when towing a #7,500lb boat, it rarely goes above 210 unless I'm in a severe stop and go mode.

I know nobody asked for this tidbit of info, but it does support the thoughts that Robb mentioned about the 250deg number being the stop/shutdown-point in a trucks auto tranny which {should} somehow relate to GT trannies.

As Kraig says....
<FONT SIZE="-2">IMO, FWIW, YMMV, My $0.02, Yada, Yada, Yada...</FONT>

 

[rchristensen]

Jeff and Wyatt
I'm not a Hydro expert but if you have lift problems I don't think it is primarily related to temperature.

I don't run hytran but I use a good hydraulic fluid in all my Cubs. I mow all summer when it is over 100 degrees and the hydro shifts the same and the lift works as good at the end of the day as the beginning. I keep the hydro clean and most of the blades on the fan. My 1450 has been mowing here in Arizona since 1990 and the hydro has never been apart. I change the hydro fluid and filter every couple of years and it never looks burnt when I remove it. If I was going to do a lot of plowing I might consider a cooler but for mowing I haven't seen the need.

On the lift pressure for the wide frames and quietlines the manual recomends 500 to a max of 625 psi with the control in the raised postion and the cylinder at the end of its stroke. Most of mine fall in the range of 550 to 570 psi and that is more than adequate to lift a mower deck, gannon or plow. My 782 had the max lift pressure set to 700 psi and I had problems when I was mowing and raised or lowered the mower deck it would cause the tractor to speed up or slow down. I changed the springs and set the max pressure to 600 psi and that cured the speed up slow down of the hydro when changing the mower height.

Jeff
On your reverse problem I would first ask if you have clean hydro fluid and a new filter and if your hydro control linkage is all good? If that is all good then I would swap the relief valves and see if you symptoms change.

If I had a weak hydraulic lift the first thing I would check is the pressures, if they are good I would replace the O-rings in the Control valve. If that didn't correct the problem you will probably have to get another hydraulic ram and swap it out to check if that is the problem.

Just some thoughts.

 

[dvogt]

I'm not sure about your typical automotive trannys but Allison the maker of heavy duty trannys use's 300 deg. as the danger point. they advise changing the fluid after you exceed 300 deg. I've had them over 300 while doing a stall test or when they have a severe slipping clutch. heat is a major killer of a tranny. lockup torque converters help alot in highway driving. Art try going up a long steep hill at 20 mph towing your trailer if you want to see your temp gauge climb.normally a tranny will assume a temp of 180 degrees because the cooler is in the radiator. but a overheating tranny can pull your engine temp up higher also putting it at risk of a overheat.

 

[dkamp]

I'll second Don's note about the in-radiator cooler- lots of weekend-off-roaders run into engine overheat problems not because of engine trouble, but because theyv'e put on oversized tires, but not lowered their axle ratios. With electronically-controlled transmissions getting their speed indication from the tranny tailshaft, they don't know that they're going 65mph instead of 50mph... hence, the electronic transmission will run for extended highway miles with the torque-converter unlocked... and they get darned hot, especially if the converter's stall RPM is high.

I also agree with Richard's assessment of Jeff's reverse-slam condition- it doesn't sound like any overheat condition I've experienced, but if one of the check-valves is sticking open, and not popping shut 'till there's a bit of reverse flow... yeah, that'd slam, and bark-tires to boot. Jeff, if you swap those check-valves, I'll bet it'll slam in Forward rathern' reverse. Best recovery for that problem? Clean the valve out good, put it back in, and DRIVE IT. Protect yourself from whiplash by staying off paved surfaces... Buy new tires in a few weeks... :-}

 

[thoffman]

Had a good Cub Cadet/IH weekend (so far). Met up with Bryan and Tedd Saturday at Rob Houtz's,and picked up a small part while having the gathering. Also found out about from Rob that the 38" deck to go on the 782D should be a snap! Just need to check on a few things and then some 82 series shieves.

Talking about "snapping" I did snap up a set of better fenders for the 12hp. Zig out of the dumpster. I think Tedd found a set of Quiet line fenders in there too.

On the way home stopped at Mike "M's" house to have weld up a deck I got from Glenn "E". Just about the time Mike worked his "Magic" on the deck Chris "E", AKA Bubba stopped by!

Sunday went to the Rock River Thresheree and got two GROTE tail light lenses for a buck each. Also found a real rare IH booklet. Notice anything different on this IH logo??

(Message edited by thoffman on September 06, 2004)

 

[thoffman]

Also saw this OT something or another!?

AHHHHHHHH, )*(^&$$#^%@# anyhow!

(Message edited by thoffman on September 06, 2004)

(Message edited by thoffman on September 06, 2004)

 

[aaytay]

And this week's "Contradition Of Terms" winner is Tom:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Had a good Cub Cadet/IH weekend. Met up with Bryan and Tedd Saturday....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

(Message edited by aaytay on September 06, 2004)

 

[thoffman]

Lets try this again..............

 

[thoffman]

Ya' know, that HP Image zone sucks!
Going to load up the old primative stuff that still works.

 

[still gt pulling with my turbo diesel 1782]

Re: hydro tranny coolers. Wyatt,rememebering the 322 etc coolers brings up another avenue to check;the F910-F935 front mower Deere has used for a long time used a series 15 Sundstrand hydro AND they have a tranny oil cooler also! That cooler IS available seperately,it is quite small and fully compatible with the CC hydro needs. Plus it can be found "used" on occasion since some of the older F-series are getting "retired" by their owners. I don't recall the exact dimensions but you know it is real small.

 

[still gt pulling with my turbo diesel 1782]

Tom H,that IH logo is quite interesting. I see what is different now also,took me a few moments to notice it. ;-)

 

[till]

Here is what I managed to get done today with the rain and in-laws around....

added X82 brakes so the new owner can get brake pads easier in the future