I have installed a Ch740-3117 in my 1864 in place of a CH18-62509. The Ch740 came wired for an Exmark mower. I tied the original wiring harness connector from the old engine on to the new engine (the way I thought it ought to go). It starts up and runs as long as the key switch is in the "start" position, but then stops running when returned to the "run" position. The CH740 has a DSAI ignition, old motor didn't. The fuel solenoid is working. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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1864 Wiring Issue
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jchamberlin
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Stephen: You have a lot of initiative to attempt an engine switch such as you describe. I've had my issues getting "foreign" engines wired correctly to a Cub Cadet harness. A few questions and a comment or two.
1. Does the starter stay engaged the whole time the engine is "running?" (I'm thinking it probably does, which is not good for the starter.)
2. What ignition key are you using? (Is it the original 1864 key?)
3. Do you have access to wiring diagrams for both the 1864 and the donor tractor, the Exmark mower? (The 1864's diagram is in the Wiring Diagrams available from the Manuals section on the Main page of this forum.)
Comment: There are basically two ignition schemes found on garden tractors, a positively powered ignition system such as found in an automobile in which the ignition is fed 12 volts with the key in either the "Run" or the "Start" position; and the Magneto-style ignition in which the key only engages the ignition directly in the "Off" position by connecting the "kill" wire to ground. In both systems, the charging current from the alternator (or generator) is fed back to the battery via the key switch.
Another factor that may be affecting your situation is that often the interlocks for the seat switch, reverse gear, etc. are positively powered for a positive system, that is, the switch makes or breaks the +12 volts to the coil. On a negative system, the interlocks make or break the ground to the "kill" wire. The PTO is almost always positive, especially for a Cub Cadet which typically uses a PTO that is designed to employ the block itself as a ground. (Hence the reason for all the relays; the relay allows a positive voltage to be turned into a ground signal.)
The 1864 came originally with a Mag 18 that used a Magneto-style ignition system. Its key should have communicated a ground to the magneto's primary coil in the the "Off" position. Your tractor actually has two (2) seat switches, a reverse switch, and a Reverse Relay in addition to the usual Brake Switch and PTO switch. Not all the interlocks are involved with the ignition circuit, but for a diagnostic, I would try to figure out what wires are needed to:
1. Start
2. Run
3. Stop
by-passing all other circuits, just so you can figure out what is going on; then add the other circuits back in one-at-a-time.
I realize this is a long answer to a simple question, and probably contains information a person such as yourself is probably already aware. But if I were in your situation I would try to simply the circuit as much as I could until you can figure out what is going on.
1. Does the starter stay engaged the whole time the engine is "running?" (I'm thinking it probably does, which is not good for the starter.)
2. What ignition key are you using? (Is it the original 1864 key?)
3. Do you have access to wiring diagrams for both the 1864 and the donor tractor, the Exmark mower? (The 1864's diagram is in the Wiring Diagrams available from the Manuals section on the Main page of this forum.)
Comment: There are basically two ignition schemes found on garden tractors, a positively powered ignition system such as found in an automobile in which the ignition is fed 12 volts with the key in either the "Run" or the "Start" position; and the Magneto-style ignition in which the key only engages the ignition directly in the "Off" position by connecting the "kill" wire to ground. In both systems, the charging current from the alternator (or generator) is fed back to the battery via the key switch.
Another factor that may be affecting your situation is that often the interlocks for the seat switch, reverse gear, etc. are positively powered for a positive system, that is, the switch makes or breaks the +12 volts to the coil. On a negative system, the interlocks make or break the ground to the "kill" wire. The PTO is almost always positive, especially for a Cub Cadet which typically uses a PTO that is designed to employ the block itself as a ground. (Hence the reason for all the relays; the relay allows a positive voltage to be turned into a ground signal.)
The 1864 came originally with a Mag 18 that used a Magneto-style ignition system. Its key should have communicated a ground to the magneto's primary coil in the the "Off" position. Your tractor actually has two (2) seat switches, a reverse switch, and a Reverse Relay in addition to the usual Brake Switch and PTO switch. Not all the interlocks are involved with the ignition circuit, but for a diagnostic, I would try to figure out what wires are needed to:
1. Start
2. Run
3. Stop
by-passing all other circuits, just so you can figure out what is going on; then add the other circuits back in one-at-a-time.
I realize this is a long answer to a simple question, and probably contains information a person such as yourself is probably already aware. But if I were in your situation I would try to simply the circuit as much as I could until you can figure out what is going on.
Jeremiah,
No initiative, just old and stupid.
1. Starter is engaged as per a normal start. If you release the starter on the key switch, starter stops and engine stops.
2. Using the original 1864 key switch.
3. I don't currently have the Exmark diagram, but will look for it.
I appreciate your help and comments. The more I fuss with this thing, the less I know!
No initiative, just old and stupid.
1. Starter is engaged as per a normal start. If you release the starter on the key switch, starter stops and engine stops.
2. Using the original 1864 key switch.
3. I don't currently have the Exmark diagram, but will look for it.
I appreciate your help and comments. The more I fuss with this thing, the less I know!
jdiederichs
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Stephen,
There are over 100 wire harness combinations for the Command twin series to meet their customer demands. Don't let that deter you! The one constant in this is the wire collor always indicates the wire purpose. Here are some common values based upon the wire colors:
VIOLET{: 12VDC to/from the voltage regulator
RED{: Always needs a 12VDC power source, for carb solenoid as well as ignition "DSAI"
WHITE{}: Ground to kill ignition
Green: Oil Sentry pressure switch, if hooked to white it would kill the engine if low oil pressure
Please drop us a note on the wiring harness wires you have. It sounds as if you have 12v present to the DSAI in the start position only, when in "run" the 12 v is no longer present at the DSAI. When I asked what harness, I mean which wires are on the user end of the harness? In a plug or seperate wies?
The only "remote" possibility is that the diodes in the wiring harness on the red leads may have failed. They are located near the user end of the harness and can be easily tested. Kohler has a p.n for them or they can be sourced at a Radio Shack store.
There are over 100 wire harness combinations for the Command twin series to meet their customer demands. Don't let that deter you! The one constant in this is the wire collor always indicates the wire purpose. Here are some common values based upon the wire colors:
VIOLET{: 12VDC to/from the voltage regulator
RED{: Always needs a 12VDC power source, for carb solenoid as well as ignition "DSAI"
WHITE{}: Ground to kill ignition
Green: Oil Sentry pressure switch, if hooked to white it would kill the engine if low oil pressure
Please drop us a note on the wiring harness wires you have. It sounds as if you have 12v present to the DSAI in the start position only, when in "run" the 12 v is no longer present at the DSAI. When I asked what harness, I mean which wires are on the user end of the harness? In a plug or seperate wies?
The only "remote" possibility is that the diodes in the wiring harness on the red leads may have failed. They are located near the user end of the harness and can be easily tested. Kohler has a p.n for them or they can be sourced at a Radio Shack store.
Jim,
Wasn't sure what you meant by user end, so diagramed both side of the harness (attachment). How do I test the diode? I have a multimeter.
Steve
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Harness ends
Jim-Wiring.xls (23.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>
Wasn't sure what you meant by user end, so diagramed both side of the harness (attachment). How do I test the diode? I have a multimeter.
Steve
<center><table border=1><tr><td>
Jim-Wiring.xls (23.0 k)</td></tr></table></center>
jdiederichs
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I am trying to recall the best way to install a DSAI ignition equipped engine into a tractor originally designed for a basic fixed timing Kohler twin.
Sounds to me like this is the scenario: Power is applied to carb solenoid, DSAI and starter solenoid in 'start' position. When turned to 'run' the power is no longer present at the DSAI, thus it dies. {as a reminder the old engine required NO power to ignition modules to run}
Here is a trial way to test: run a wire from the keyswitch (R) terminal and attach it to the larger ga. red wire of the Kohler engine. It should now crank, start and keep running (provided 12vdc is supplied on the jumper wire.)
Once we establish that works, the rest is easy!
Sounds to me like this is the scenario: Power is applied to carb solenoid, DSAI and starter solenoid in 'start' position. When turned to 'run' the power is no longer present at the DSAI, thus it dies. {as a reminder the old engine required NO power to ignition modules to run}
Here is a trial way to test: run a wire from the keyswitch (R) terminal and attach it to the larger ga. red wire of the Kohler engine. It should now crank, start and keep running (provided 12vdc is supplied on the jumper wire.)
Once we establish that works, the rest is easy!
I tried both the "R" terminal & the "B" terminal with the same results. Probably due to the fact that the red engine side wire is paired with the blue wire that goes to the solenoid, it causes the starter to stay engaged. I'm unsure of how "crazy" I can get with trying different combinations with out doing damage to the DSAI stuff.
On the CC side of the harness to the engine, I have identified 2 hots in the "start" position and 2 hots in the "run position", but don't know what to do with that info. Kohler rep said I needed diodes on one of the red wires to the engine. Radio Shack size?
jdiederichs
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The diode kit is available from a Kohler dealer as part number 25 755 31-S or radio shack has the diodes, need a 6amp, 1000PIV diode
jdiederichs
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To review; does the starter solenoid de-energize when keyswitch is in run position, or does it continue to crank?
I reviewed your illustrations again today and all appears to be correct as you have it.
Here is something to try next. Can you "open" the kill curcuit to evaluate further. Either the WHT wire on the Kohler side or the YLW wire on the CC side, please remove one of these from the plug so they are not connected. Now attempt to start and run the tractor. Let us know what happened. The purpose is to remove the Ign. kill functionality, nothing will be damaged by doing this. You can still shut off the tractor by turning the key to off, it will just take a few seconds until the fuel solenoid closes.
I reviewed your illustrations again today and all appears to be correct as you have it.
Here is something to try next. Can you "open" the kill curcuit to evaluate further. Either the WHT wire on the Kohler side or the YLW wire on the CC side, please remove one of these from the plug so they are not connected. Now attempt to start and run the tractor. Let us know what happened. The purpose is to remove the Ign. kill functionality, nothing will be damaged by doing this. You can still shut off the tractor by turning the key to off, it will just take a few seconds until the fuel solenoid closes.
The starter does de-energize in the run position.
When I open the "kill" circuit, the starter won't engage. The "kill" wire tests "hot" in the "start" position. I could hear the fuel solenoid click the second time when in the start position? That seems strange to me.
I noticed in an illustration of the donor tractor ignition that it has 3 wires in use from the ignition in the "run" position. I think I only have 2.
When I open the "kill" circuit, the starter won't engage. The "kill" wire tests "hot" in the "start" position. I could hear the fuel solenoid click the second time when in the start position? That seems strange to me.
I noticed in an illustration of the donor tractor ignition that it has 3 wires in use from the ignition in the "run" position. I think I only have 2.
In illustration #3, the yellow & red wires are hot in the "start" mod. Red/w wht stripe and black are hot in the "run" mode.
I don't know if I mentioned it in this forum, but I do have a rectangular connector in the battery box area, with 2 round male pins and no where to plug it. One wire is gray the other red/w wht stripe. What is strange about it is that it is clean, like it had been plugged in somewhere. My old engine was one big oil leak and dirty everywhere.
I don't know if I mentioned it in this forum, but I do have a rectangular connector in the battery box area, with 2 round male pins and no where to plug it. One wire is gray the other red/w wht stripe. What is strange about it is that it is clean, like it had been plugged in somewhere. My old engine was one big oil leak and dirty everywhere.
jdiederichs
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Stephen: The white wire must never, ever be "hot" in the start position, or any position. You never want current to the ignition kill circuit, ever. Bad, bad, bad news. You may need to rewire the switch as it currently is not right.
The Cub harness' yellow wire must go to the "M" terminal on switch. If it does and is "hot" with the switch in start, then the switch is bad or the cub harness has shorted. The M terminal on the switch grounds the ignition, that terminal should } have current in any position. Remove the harness from the switch and recheck that. With the switch in the off position that M term should be grounded, verify contiuity to ground with V/O meter
In other words, the M terminal must have continuity to ground in the key "off"; no continuity to ground in the start and run positions. If current is at the M term. in any position "Houston, we have a problem". Switch is bad.
The Cub harness' yellow wire must go to the "M" terminal on switch. If it does and is "hot" with the switch in start, then the switch is bad or the cub harness has shorted. The M terminal on the switch grounds the ignition, that terminal should } have current in any position. Remove the harness from the switch and recheck that. With the switch in the off position that M term should be grounded, verify contiuity to ground with V/O meter
In other words, the M terminal must have continuity to ground in the key "off"; no continuity to ground in the start and run positions. If current is at the M term. in any position "Houston, we have a problem". Switch is bad.
