E-85

[kide]

Moving this off the main forum - there seems to be some confusion regarding WHAT E-85 is versus the "gasohol" (10-20%) stuff we've bought for years. From Wikipedia:
"E85 is an alcohol fuel mixture that typically contains a mixture of up to 85% denatured fuel ethanol and gasoline or other hydrocarbon by volume. On an undenatured basis, the ethanol component ranges from 70% to 83%."

Now - as to whether a standard engine could have some problems with E-85 ???
"E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel engines are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 40% more fuel), the selection of stainless steel fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used"..

There's an interesting article in the new Popular Mechanics that has the opinion that the major benefit of E-85 is political - that there is close to zero gain in using corn as the basis for synfuels and that it is already creating issues in the food supply. Myself - I'm already into wood gasification (anyone need a bucket of creosote???).

 

[wcompton]

My 141 is being built FOR the use of ethanol.

I'm not sure what the current majority of ethanol is, but at one time it was mostly corn based. There's great strides being made in the conversion of biomass and celulose materials.

 

[mbounds]

KIde: Ken, Thanks for that Wikipedia explanation. I strongly suspect that some folks don't understand whether they are getting "gasohol" or E85. The more commonly found "Gasohol" & E85 are not the same but they apparently can't distinguish between the two. Lots of "gasohol" at stations around here but E85?? Haven't looked very hard but since the pumps are required to be marked, so far, I haven't seen any E85 yet. There's one thing you can be sure of, I won't ever use E85 in my Cub Cadets!!

Myron B

 

[bbrigham]

This is a topic that really sparks my interest. I have been looking at alternate fuels for about 15 years, mostly just to do something different. Now that gas prices have been going up so much I think about it more. I have looked a lot into distilling my own alky to run in my toys. Actually a pretty simple operation but time consuming. Still tryin to decide on which way to go with a still. Heres something interesting I found.

 

[kweaver]

Kendell - So you're saying that back in the early '80s we ran 10 - 20% alky and now we're running 85% according to Wikipedia ?
(it's to early , blood pressure pills haven't kicked in yet...)

As for the "political" side of it , without the federal money there wouldn't be a self supporting drop of E85 out there.

 

[kweaver]

Brendan - There's more to it than just "cooking" it. You have to have the water removed. Running it through just once (as done for "fuel") there's a lot of water left in the mix. The "refineries" use clay balls to absorb out the unwanted water.
The feds love bustin moonshiners ... you'll have to have a permit and account for every drop made which has to be immediately mixed with gasoline so it can't be drank.

 

[bbrigham]

Ken, Yep, there is more to it. I've spent a lot of time researching it. Needs the correct temp to get best results and there are several different designs of stills to get the needed purity. One article I read says there is an additive that you can put in it so it can't be consumed and therefore can be stored. Then you get the storage issue of evaporation and water absorbsion. I probably have 200 hours into reading into it. I would like to run a bio-diesel but I don't know whats available for engine other than the Kabotas and those Chinese anchors thats small enough to fit in a Cub.

 

[kide]

KentucK:
As Myron says-most of what we're using is not E-85, just "gasohol". I think there may be a few E-85 pumps in our area, but I haven't seen (or <u>looked</u>) for one.

As for Gumn't support, there are at least two projects in the central Michigan area that have been put on hold, even with subsidies, due to the rising cost of corn. There are other biomass options, switchgrass for instance or most any cellulose (not cellulite or this nation would have unlimited biodiesel from our own fat) source look to be more promising than grain based options. The biological agents used to break the cellulose down for fermentation are still being developed and the processes are all still batch based rather than continuous flow, which still really hampers production of any type of ethanol production but cellulose based production can have a much higher yield (more than the close to zero sum of corn based). Some great reading can be found just by Googleing "Switchgrass Ethanol".

 

[kmcconaughey]

And I believe you have to pay a road use tax if you use it in a vehicle licensed to run on a road.

 

[bbrigham]

I have looked at the BATF site several times at the permits and taxes and never could find any info on alcohol fuel taxes, only for consumable spirits.

 

[kmcconaughey]

I recall hearing/reading (might have been a link posted here somewhere????) that some people were getting in trouble for using home made bio-diesel (made from vegetable oil from fast food restaurants) in their vehicles because no road tax was paid on the fuel. Kind of like using the diesel for farm vehicles which I believe has a dye in it in trucks that are driven on roads for none farm use.

 

[bbrigham]

I'm sure your right there Kraig, god forbid someone gets one over on uncle Sam

 

[kweaver]

Kraig - If you use the "off road" fuel on the road and have a wreck and they find that dye ... well you can forget about your insurance

Kendell - When I was in MO getting that Vega I had to fill up before I hit the road back and I filled up with E85 @ about a $1.68 per gallon.

Brendan - Just run some shine through the still 7 times and put it in your mower ... worked for me

To strong to drink and no cutting it with gas ... although some people tried to drink it they couldn't handle it.

 

[sblunier]

The fossil fuel energy consumed to make ethanol is HUGE, be it coal or natural gas. Government backing and politics are a HUGE component of the current E85 push. In short, use just as much fuel, to make E85 fuel, to say we're saving fuel...and subsidize it to make it economically viable (kind-of, but not really when you compare MPG) and then be able to say that you are a "green friendly" canidate....and BTW VOTE for me......

Don't get me wrong, high corn prices are great for the ag business, and being in the nat. gas business I'm seeing plenty of work because of new/potential ethanol plants, BUT.....don't be surprised if the bottom falls out of it the second the gov. $$$$ do.

 

[bbranstetter]

For what little this is worth, I picked up a can of gas for the cub at the last plow day. It was something like a 10 or 15 percent blend and the cub didn't run like it normally would. When I got home I cleaned the fuel bowl, regaped the point and plug and so on. Went to fuel up the push mower with a 20 year old smokin' briggs and I thought would run just about anything, wouldn't even hardly start on that rotten stuff. Finally ended up dumping the rest of the can and bought some new and everything was back to normal. I'm bringing more fuel from home because that blended stuff didn't work for crap in all of my small engines, however in all fairness I did not buy the premium when I was there and may have been most of the issue.

 

[stritle]

Guys, all gasoline is required to have 10% ethanol blend, as the MBTE oxygenate was outlawed due to the fact it causes cancer. So, dumping the can and buying local gas really didn't change the blend. Maybe you accidentally bought E85? That might explain the problem.

As for the energy balance, we could go on all night and through next week going back and forth by that. The oil companies have done a great job on making a negative energy balance story stick. Meanwhile, the efficiency of oil keeps going down and down.

Now if we could get to that oil in ANWAR, maybe I would lose my love of ethanol. Nope. That would make me lose my job.

 

[kide]

I dunno, maybe the petrochemical triads

are somehow influencing a lot of people involved in the scientific study, but when I look at this paper from 2005, it looks like they took a lot into account. One significant factor is that the waste output from cellulose based ethanol can be burned to generate the heat necessary for the ethanol production process, whereas the corn (sugar) based ethanol process requires external energy sources (apparently natural gas suppliers are the big winners here...).

I'm not against ethanol based fuels - aside from the mods noted earlier, all we need are bigger gas, er - I mean fuel tanks.. but before we bet all our resources on one source, we need to make sure we're heading in the right direction and I'm really not in favor of government subsidizing of a zero sum answer..

Just got my new Popular Mechanics today - good article in there also...

 

[kide]

More food for thought:
Scientific American and Science Daily articles....

 

[glippert]

Ethanol is not "the answer" to the high fuel prices, but it's a step in the right direction. Huge strides have been made over the past few years in terms of production efficiency, just on the corn side. Now there's great progress in other sources, like switchgrass, etc. Any new technology takes time and resources to become truly feasible, but I see an economic benefit in the form of employment in rural areas, where decent paying jobs are scarce. And at the risk of sounding like a Reagan trickle-down theorist, will-paying jobs do stimulate local economies. And if we buy one less gallon of oil from foreign countries I'm for it. We subsidize all kinds of programs in this country (right or wrong), and ethanol is just one more. In case I sound like I have stock in the industry, I don't. At least not directly. But four years ago my son-in-law was a part-time bartender at a Lonestar Steakhouse. Today he's a Plant Manager at an ethanol plant. Instead of qualifying for foodstamps and welfare programs, he (and my daughter & two grandkids) are now in a substantial tax bracket and paying taxes to help support all the programs (good & bad) that our taxes pay for. Not to mention the money that goes back to their local area merchants, etc. As I said, corn-based ethanol is not the answer, but it beats doing nothing besides shaking our heads and cussing big oil.

Wow. Reading back through this, I sound like a lunatic. But I'm really harmless! Just excercising the old first amendment right! Thanks for letting me add my $.02.

 

[sblunier]

Steve T.

You still have a choice between straight fuel and 10% ethanol blend in IL. The 10% rule you speak of must be a state thing.



The big thing to remember here is, while ethanol is a step in the right direction, it's not the end all be all answer to the energy crisis, especially considering the volume of energy it takes to produce it from corn. I burn E10 in my van and truck, and made sure when I bought an '06 Ford truck that it had the FFV rated 5.4L in case E85 really takes off, but until the local price of E85 really becomes an incentive it's hard to get behind it. When it's priced almost the same as E10 or straight 87 octane it's hard to say it's cost effective considering the losses in performance. It's just too bad it takes subsidies to even get it that close. It's also somewhat of a vicious circle, as in theory E85 becomes more economical as the price of oil rises, yet the price of fuel to produce E85 tends to follow oil pricing.