Nitro n' Top Fuel

[kide]

Frank M:
I think I might have steered the conversation a little too far away from what's supposed to be on the main forum, so I started a new thread in the Sandbox....
I've been fortunate to be acquainted with Dick - not close, as you always need to respect someone of his stature's privacy, if ya know what I mean. I did talk to him for a bit this summer, after he retired. I thought ESPN Sports was going to do an interview with him in October-November, but I haven't seen it. He's got some definite opinions about the NHRA organization and its politics. He's very concerned about the "everyday" people that work their butts off for years and what if anything they might show for it in retirement..

Hey I ran across some fun facts - have you seen this posted?-
-One Top Fuel dragster's 500-inch Hemi makes more horsepower then the first 8 rows at the NASCAR Daytona 500.
-Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1 1/2 gallons of nitro per second, the same rate of fuel consumption as a fully loaded 747 but with 4 times the energy volume.
-The supercharger takes more power to drive then a stock hemi makes.
-Even with nearly 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into nearly solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock.
-Dual magnetos apply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
-At stoichiometric (exact) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture (for nitro), the flame front of nitromethane measures 7050 degrees F.
-Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.
-Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2 way, the engine is dieseling from compression-plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting off its fuel flow.
-If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in those cylinders and then explodes with a force that can blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or blow the block in half.
-Dragsters twist the crank (torsionally) so far (20 degrees in the big end of the track) that sometimes cam lobes are ground offset from front to rear to re-phase the valve timing somewhere closer to synchronization with the pistons.
-To exceed 300mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an average of over 4G's. But in reaching 200 mph well before 1/2 track, launch acceleration is closer to 8G's.
-On the tracks with shorter shorter shut-down area, many drivers shut off before the finish line, or even dual parachutes will not stop the car.
-If all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs $1000.00 per second.
-Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have read this sentence.

BTW - the Fairlane T-Bolt that Ray Paquet runs is, per what Ray told me years ago, the prototype that was used by Dearborn Steel Tubing... here's a pic of him in '01 at Indy. From what I heard earlier in the fall, Ray's in a total rebuild of the car now. He used to be one of the best crash box drivers around, with a reputation for being able to step into anyone's manual transmission racer and cut a couple of tenths..

 

[fmorski]

Ken:
I tested his fuel in 01 at Indy.

I will bet that Dick L and I have the same opinion of NHRA.

The T/F list was something we created a few years back to give some perspective to the general public. We also included that the 7000 plus HP is harnessed by tire prints that are the equivalent of two ledger sheets of paper. Deacceleration would throw the driver completely out of the car if he were not belted in. The force caused Don Garlits' eyes to nearly pop out of their sockets. That is one of the major reasons he quit.

Here is my favorite question...How many revolutions does a T/F engine turn from the green light to 4.35 seconds at the finish line?

Another interesting fact...If the driver sees the green light, he might as well shut off because he has already lost.

T/F dragsters accelerate to nearly 120 mph in the width of a city street, 50-60 feet and does it in under 0.9 sec.

Most T/F cars don't need to shut the fuel supply off as they have ran out of fuel before the finish line. Many times it is impossible to sample fuel from the tank as their is none, we take it from the lines on the hat's bypass line....only need a small testube full to test.

Drivers pull the chute so that it delpoys 100% as the car crosses the finish line.

This scrubbs over 100 mph instantly and the cars in many cases come completely off the ground.

A friend of mine, David Harata had his A/FD car explode an engine in the pits in 2002. The explosing was so violent that the heads were launched like rockets. THe crank was on the gound and the block looked like it had had grenade placed inside of it. THe amount of fuel that did that was less than a table spoon. They forgot to spin the engine after the last run with the plugs out. This is a manditory process that spits out the raw nitro. Also, they did not back it down before placing the starter on it and trying to spin it . THey had not taken the plugs out. When nitro is compressed to the point that it passes 900 degrees, it becomes unstable and will explode.

One more fact, nearly 50% of the nitro fed to the T/F engine burns after exiting the cylinders...that is the reason for the sound and flames.

I looked for the sheet we made up but can't find it..there were some other interesting facts that I can't remember right off the top of my head.

Wn't even get into the clutch. That by itself is a very interesting area.

 

[kide]

Frank:
I know the answer, we'll see if anyone else has seen it. I've got another friend who has stayed close to racing ( he actually raced a car with Ray in the 70's) and passes along info likes this every once in a while.(He still subscribes to Dragster too). I couldn't believe it when I first read it!
My wife and her ex raced with the Lansing based club (Chevairs) that Dick Griffen led back in the 60's (hotted up turbo Corvair's mostly, then pure stocks). We've got a Nats class win flag from '65 nailed up in the garage - just about all she got out of the marriage.....

. (She's had me for 36 years though, maybe she's just unlucky).

 

[digger]

I dunno WTH you guys are talkin about, but it's interesting.
Switch to Sprints and I'll join in.

 

[digger]

Or Big trucks and X wives!

 

[kide]

Charlie:
My heart stopped there for a second --You lost that TRUCK????
I sat in a sprint car at the Farm Progress show when it was in Columbus Indiana a few years ago. Weird - like setting on a 800 HP bar stool..

 

[digger]

Kendell,
Not only no, but hell no!
I booted the X and kept the truck!
I do have my priorites ya know.

 

[kweaver]

Kendell - I've always wondered what happened to Kim. I know Dick was owner of a car now but back when Dick raced and Kim was his crew chief, then he quit driving nothing was ever said what happened to Kim. I thought it was cool to have your daughter as the crew chief.

I was following Erica Enders and seen alot of promise there then she switched sponsors and I've not seen her since. She sure showed a lot of guys how to get there first

Hillary Will needs to be took OFF the track! I've seen to many close calls from her. She's just not physically strong enough to handle those 5000+ ponies.

Call Kenny Hill and tell him to put his yellow draster back on the track !!!! I loved that bright yellow rocket. I wish I'd seen some of his power boat racing days.

You ever get SICK of hearing about nascar on the news , in tv adds , tv shows ... any damn fool can hold the steering wheel cocked to the left and drive 200mph. They need to go 328+mph with 5000+hp in under 5 seconds ... or even better yet crash at 300+ and walk away ! That crash that Brandon had when his dragster broke in two and he raised up probably 12 feet in the air scared the crap out of me. I've got that crash and another one or two really bad ones on disc.

Digger - did ya get any traction with that ... the next time you try to run her down don't let her grab on.

 

[fmorski]

Kentucky:

Kim is one of chief wrenches for Kenny Berstein's team.
Dick went from owner/driver to crew chief for Larry Dixon on the Miller team.

She is Kim Richards Now....That is why you don't see, recognize where she is.

Dick has retired from wrenching.

Ray Alley was fired from NHRA because he was hired by Bernstein to run new team for 2007.

Olson was hired to replace him.
Poor Shreck, Alley's go-for, was passed over for promotion...I can hear him whine now....
I got tired of working with and listening to him whine..... Ray's knowledge was awesome, but he was hard to work with...very forgetful. He would bring in some samles for me to run in my Gas Chromatograph and then forget why he brought them in.

That was Larry Dixon at Memphis when he went into an A-Frame stand as car broke in half...I was right there probably less than 500 feet away down track. The reason the car did that was because they had tweaked the frame in the prior pass and had tried to reload by putting under truck and jacking on it....You see the results...Disaster..we had it all on film, the reloading...from TV ....when we were analyzing the wreck in the Tech trailer, we learned of the film and got it....Not hard to see why when we watched the film.. That was the same week that Tony Schumached destroyed his car at over 300 right in front of me.. I was the first to Tony. I helped pick up hi sengine 1/3 mile from the point of accident. Tony's wreck was first and Larry's second.

I like what Bob Frey told a NASCAR guy once, when the guy was bragging about the 800hp engines, Bob said, just think, we produce more that with one piston....
T/F engines are producing approximately 7000hp...about the same as a diesel locomotive engine on Railroad...slighltly less torque...

Brandon crashed at Englishtown NJ...Went over the guard wall...I junped up in my fuel lab and broke my glasses when I put my hand on them s I could lean out the windod and see as he went over the wall....He was headed right at our trailer....luck we were way down track and he halted about 500 feet short of us...

Used to tech Brandon's A/FD car when Darian had him drive for him.

Kendal:
Guess nobody knows the answer!

DIGGER:

Sprint Cars are way too slow...Do like to watch Outlaw Srpint cars....especially the ones with MC engines...bounce around like basketballs.
Frank

 

[kide]

Kim married Tim Richards -- also a very well known and competitive crew chief. Dick's son was doing some racing (Comp, if I remember right), but never went very far with it..

About 540 revolutions from the time the car leaves the line..

Dick's a few years older than me, but I've always thought he was cool (first saw him at our local strip (Onondaga - long gone) in the early 60's) What really p....s me off is that he was a world champion in one of the most dangerous sports and you can't find half a dozen people in his home town (on the street) who knows who he is. Of course, you can't get any coverage of drag racing from our local rag, either.,,

 

[bcook]

My family has went to races since the late 1920's. My grandpa was half owner of a midget in the early-mid 1940's (racing was halted during WWII) And I have an uncle that raced (and sometimes owned his own) midget, sprint, and champ dirt cars from the late 50's to the late 80's. I have been going to races since I was born, and I started racing karts at the ripe old age of 5...and did that for 23 straight seasons. I've been to 43 different race tracks, and have seen races on dirt tracks, paved tracks, road courses, temporary street courses, races held indoors in the winter time, even motocross.........I have watched karts, modifieds, midgets, mini sprints, TQ midgets, Indy cars, sprint cars, dirt champ cars, stock cars, dwarf cars, trucks, motorcycles..etc, etc..so I ain't some kind of television fan...or some putz who has only read about races in the paper.

*There is nothing 'slow' about a sprint car.*

True, a dragster is fast...but it's not as fast a fighter jet. Sure, a sprint car is slower than a fuel dragster...but that is like comparing an apple to an orange. Whole different concept.

Gary Scelzi, Ron Capps, and Cruz Pedragon have all tried midget racing indoors at the Chili Bowl in Tulsa, OK...and if I remember correctly, Scelzi ended up on his lid..and the other 2 didn't exactly set the world on fire either.

Drag racing is a breed unto itself. The dragster is fast in a straight line...but won't turn worth a damn. A dragster is fast...but only for a short amount of time. They are very neat...don't get me wrong, -but- a guy driving a USAC sprint car at Winchester, or Eldora sure as hell ain't some kind of candy ass because he 'only' has 850hp, and is turning low 14 to low 15 second laps!!!

 

[fmorski]

My favorite difference is:

In Circle racing, you can pit and fix you screw ups...In drag racing you only get one chance and cannot screw up.

It is a huge challenge to figure all the settings on a T/F car. Jsut the timers is a major feat. They control the fuel and clutch systems. You are operating a computer system using air instead of electricity. You have to figure the settings so the times work properly. You have to set the clutch clearances.

Can a cricle track crew rebuild an engine completely in a little over 45 minutes? A T/F crew can and do it right....The turn around is 75 minutes from end of run to the next call. I havepushed some of my Alcohol crews even harded when we had weather issues. That includes cooling the clutch, changing doing a leakdown, changing pistons, redoing the heads, new bearings, reassembling, setting valves, and on and on. I am not knocking circle racing, just that Drag Racing gets a lot less coverage for some pretty awesome feats.

 

[kide]

I got nothing against going in circles (most fun I ever had was on a 500 single laid over, with the back end just about where the front end should be), BUT - in my neck of the woods kids with cars made 'em into drag racers, not circle track copies. I know that Hot Rod and other magazines have tried every few years to start NASCAR lookalike trends, but most modified street machines look soemthing like that picture of the T-Bolt, not Tony's #20 (Gotta be careful here, since there's an orange flag that flies from our porch - the better half thinks Tony's "cute" and has taken up watchin' NASCAR every weekend). I'm just old school - I can remember when "Win on Sunday, Sells on Monday" was about drag racing, OR even a roundy round car that looked like what was on the road. And even though I've never spent a lot of time at other events, I sure have thrashed between rounds, like Frank sez, even if it was in a E/MP Chevy, not a top fueler...

 

[bcook]

Please don't make the mistake of lumping all 'circle track' racing into 1 catergory! 'Straightliners' think everybody else has races like the NASCAR boys.

There are NO pit stops in a sprint car race....how ever the car is set up when you get pushed off, is what you have to deal with.

When there is a serious crash/somebody gets upside down, the red flag is used to stop the race so the safety crew/paramedics in the ambulances can check the driver. Some sanctioning bodies allow what is called an 'open red'..(and some don't) During an open red crews are allowed to make minor adjustments like air pressure, and tightening or loosening the car up by tweaking the tortion bar stops. If they have enough time they might even change a shock. Changing a tire will get you a trip to the tail...so unless the tire is actually going flat, you don't see many tire changes.

BTW, what is a clutch? Sprint cars are direct drive. It is either in gear, or it's out of gear.

Sprint car set up is a game of anticipation. If you did well enough through your qualifying time, to get a decent starting spot in the 8 lap heat race...and you run your ass off to make it into one of the transfer spots, then you have to set the car up for a 30 lap feature.

You have to try to 'read' a dirt track....is it holding moisture, and where?..or is it kinda dry now, but when the sun goes down will the moisture come back up?...and then is that going to be where the driver likes to run? (the top, middle or bottom of the track) Is the track going to be dry and slick?..or maybe even rough or breaking up in spots?..are you wanting to run the middle of 1&2, and the top of 3&4?....all of these go into choosing a tire compound, stagger, tortion bar ratios/sizes, and tortion bar stop settings for left side, and rear weight transfer, not to metion shock absorber compression and rebound ratios.

Then after you have taken your best guess....Somebody is running the same line you wanted in 1&2 and you can't get a good enough run off of 4 to pass them down the front stretch, so you fade up, and try to go around them on the high side into 1...you jump the cushion and thump the wall, and the car doesn't feel quite the same. so you start 'hunting' on the track..trying to find a place where the car will hook up. Each lap the track changes..what about where you had the car set up for, hoping the track had some moisture there...well, no, it is dry and taking rubber so the car pushes bad, and then you had better baby that right rear tire, otherwise you will blister it!...etc, etc... All the while you are running 15 second laps and trying to make damn sure you don't run over a wheel on the other 19 cars on the track with you...which will get you upside down, and a trip in the ambulance. And don't forget about that nice and hard concrete wall.

Sprint car engines don't need rebuilt after each race. Yes, a 45 minute rebuild is cool to watch...but what fun is it to 'trash' thousands of dollars worth of 'innards' each pass down the track?? If not for the mega $ sponsors, nobody could come close to being able to afford TF/FC racing. I watched guys gut a TF engine, and pull the smoking clutch out and put it in a basket...yeah, it's neat to watch them work...but after doing that a few times, I don't see how it would be fun anymore. True, the sound and 'feel' of fuel cars is a wild experience...but so is seeing 20 sprinters running wide open heading into Eldora's 1st turn...from the top of the track, to the bottom..all looking for a place to race. And seeing it happen for 30 laps...2, 3, sometimes 4 wide through the corners

 

[kide]

Wild Bill:
I may have made you think I didn't like the Sprints (as a matter of fact, with the "Tony Factor", we may be making a trip down to Eldora next year...). Really - it's two entirely different kinds of racing - probably like comparing apples n' kumquats. I dig the drag racing technology - I'm a lifelong gearhead (that's why I make my $$ in IT ???

) but I try to know as much as I can about every kind of motorsport.
It is still all about getting from point A to point B the quickest, it just depends on how far apart they are, and whether you gotta go by them more than once.

 

[bcook]

No problem Kendall

From my end it seems like Frank is saying a sprint car driver isn't s**t because he doesn't go 300mph+ with 7000hp, and his crew doesn't rebuild the engine after every time he comes off the track.

I have spent many a day/night at Eldora... It isn't what it used to be, but I have heard they are hauling in new clay right now. Maybe with that, and if Tony fires this 'Larry' (the putz in charge) guy, the track hopefully will be good again. The last couple of years Larry has been pretty lax on track prep, and it has been dry and really dusty!

For your first trip to "The Big 'E'" (http://www.eldoraspeedway.com/), I would suggest a USAC sprint car show. Close racing all night long..3 wide is common, and without the wings, it is really a drivers race.

If you are heading down to Eldora for a Sat. night show, leave a day earlier, and stop at Limaland Motorsports Park http://www.limaland.com/ The track is a 1/4 mile, and the action is 'in your face'. They have a nice program there.

Be sure to check out the racing action pics on both sites

 

[kweaver]

I use to go to the roundy tracks here and in a near town (they had dirt!) back in the 70's. My last race was Easter Sunday ... thinking ...32 years ago. I sure like dirt tracking better. Just something about power sliding around the corners and seeing the dirt fill the crowd !

I use to like watching midgits on tv and sprints too but when they started putting those big stupid looking wings on I lost interest.

I can't tell ya when it was but back in the 60's a friend of mine that was a school teacher in Dearborn and his brother in law (worked for FERD) use to drag a Vette. His wife (also a teacher) ran it a few times and once she beat Ramchagers !! The Vette got sold when the upity ups at Ferd told Denny to sell it or look for another job. Bob (the teacher) took me for a ride in his street 67 Vette with 427 and 4spd box and man was it a ride

Everytime he down shifted and stood on it the paint slid back ... broke off the radio antenna -o)

I use to watch Nascar back when the "good 'ol boys" where racing but when Petty finally retired I just lost interest. I think he was the last one of the "oldies" to retire ... been to long to remember.

For what it's worth (and it's less than my 2cents) the 'ol lady can't stand Force. He talks to loud and fast to hear her tell it.

I'll just keep driving my 99 Silverado with the 4.3 5spd that gets 3rd gear rubber and will do 70mph in 3rd gear. I can't afford to build an engine anymore (last one was in 87)although I did try to find a blower for my 89 4.3 this past summer. I never could find one!! I had some money burning a hole ... 4.3L stuff seems to be like hens teeth.

 

[fmorski]

Wild Bill:

Did not say or mean it imply that.

Seems that all the circle guys get 10 times more press than any drag racer.
There is a lt to driving a drag racing vehicle, expecially when you are exceeding 175 mph.
At what point would you think a fuel driver would apply the brake?

Answer wil surprise you...just past the starting line...that is how they keep the car from striking the tires...you have to feel the tires and determine how much brake to apply as you accelerate....try that at between 4 and 8g's..a little tricky.

I do feel that wer ae more safety consious. I do know for a fact that seat belts are not checked for dates. I is a prven fact that a seat belt looses 50% of its retention within 1 year. That is why we regquire new or rewebbed belts every two years. SFI ran the tets and wer were shocked at the results. Unless they have changed it,NASCAR rules have no mention of dated belts. THe last rule book I had, 2 or 3 years back led one to believe he could race in his birthday suit. ONly requirement was a helmet and that also did not have any specs. There are a buch of different helmets and the specs tell you that. An M series helmet is for motorcycle riders and an SA is for Special Application, meaning it has more impact resistance built into it. Then there is the fire retarding..and on and on...
Wonder why NASCAR asked NHRA to help them develop a template program several years back? We have ttemplates for al the pro stock body styles. We took them to NASCAR to show them how to make body templates. Danny G. out Nat Tech director worked with them for quite a while.

Muchof the hi tech items actually started in Drag racing...We tax them to a much grearter degree than a circlke car will...YTake brake rotors....You can read a newspaper at midnight from the glow of a T/F brake rotor at shutdown. You can see them glow over 1/4 mile away. Found that carbon fiber was the only way to go....same thing with titanium...parts....
I am not saying that they are not sophisticated in their sport, just in other areas....It is amazing to watch two identical cars do different things on a track..one pushing the other hugging the line perfectly....The greatest asset they have is the wind tunnel....

My non drag racing preference would be road course racing....More challenging as yo have to set the car up to turn both ways....

That does make Sonoma an interesting Nascar race. I used to work that track for dragracing.

By the way, I can't put t too far down, my daughter works as a Medical Doctor for Nascar when they are in Phoenix. She works the infield and Oasis centers.

You tent to favor what you have doen for over 40 years. First pass was in 1963.

Kentucky...you ought to have to work with John Force...he can be pushy...kids do get execllent treatment by John. He does know how to work a crowd.
I used to tech Ashley's race cars...did them in the trailer so the crowds would not be a factor...John would come pick me up and I would do the car and then he hauled me back.

 

[kide]

Hey Frank:
"'Dick-o' is back! Veteran LaHaie will be tuning consultant for Kalitta team"

http://www.nhra.com/content/news/20226.htm

Also - I'm learning the tech stuff on a comp rail a friend just bought (turn key, including trailer - three year old Spitzer w/460 Rat/carb/gas/Coan Pwrglide !!!) He's had his license for a couple of years (Frank Hawley school in Fla)...the good part - he's older than I am !!!

 

[fmorski]

Kendall:
Saw that. I am not going to the race even though it is 15 miles away. The Alcohol cars are not there so most of my friends are absent. I have not gone for two years. Don't care to put up with the attitude of several of the brass in tech. Only day I would have gone was friday and it was a wash anyway.

Will be checking fuel at the World Ford Challenge in Indy May 18-20.