Archive through September 30, 2012

[jchamberlin]

Mike: If you've recently worked on the engine, and if you've worked through ignition issues, then that leaves only fuel and governor issues remaining.

Some things to check:

Are you sure the carb is getting fuel?

When you start it, and get it running, are you sure that the choke is fully off, and that you have the motor running at the proper RPM when you're adjusting the carburetor?

You've got to adjust the idle speed while you adjust the idle mixture, so it can be a bit tricky. You've got to stay out of the main jet while you're getting the idle speed and mixture dialed in.

Once you've got the idle circuit set, the main fuel circuit is supposed to kick in.

If you're confident in your idle speed and mixture, then the issue main be at the main circuit. The Carter allows you to adjust the mixture of the main fuel circuit (the screw on top); if your engine is struggling to run, then it could be set too lean; try unscrewing the main needle jet; if the engine starts putting out black smoke, it's too rich.

Otherwise, there could be issues with the float and needle and seat valve. Often, problems with these components don't show up until the main circuit comes in. When in doubt, replace the float.

Finally, you should make sure you have the governor adjusted properly before you tackle anything, because if it isn't set properly, nothing you do at the carburetor will work and you'll wind up chasing yourself.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I don't profess to being an expert, I simply study the theory and attempt to put it into practice. Often, practiced hands can cut through the theory and fix-it-quick, but that's never been my style.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted out after a while.

 

[cfischer]

So on my super quietline project I was thinking about the difference between the implement hookup on the supers... and thought of doing this... what do you think? This is just a mockup.

 

[digger]

Chuck F.
It's a lot easier to do it this way.

 

[wcompton]

Marlin-
It's all back together. I do have a bunch of "leftovers" that make up the lesser of the two Hydros I took apart. I was honestly surprised that the pistons and bores showed almost no wear. The tappet faces and rings are another story. Here's what was strange about the 169's hydro; there were NO milled passegways on the charge pump casting, the passegways were completely made by drilling series of holes. I had never seen such a thing done on a production part like these.

 

[hydroharry]

Mike - I agree with Jeremiah's info, but I'd also like you to restate your original problem (was it blowing the top off the coil) and then you replaced the coil with a questionable correct coil. Then you proceeded to go thru the carb, don't know exactly what you replaced. And then you replaced the points and set the timing, and since it now starts very quickly I suspect you have good points and the timing set correctly. We need to add up all these details and come to some current suggestions. I'm just not sure but thinking blown head gasket or valve problem, but it could be a governor issue, or is it still a questionable coil?

 

[mhomrighausen]

Wyatt C. Save those parts and post some pics. I'm off to work for now. Maybe I can find some history about that unique charge pump.

Everyone have a wonderful week.

 

[mpatterson]

Harry, Jeremiah,

Will start over from begining in hopes I missed something?

Originally the tractor was working great up until the cracks in the top of the coil finally broke free and started squirting all of the coil's contents all over the side of the engine. This was because of old age I am alomost positive. Yep, PCB's and all blown over the side of the engine. So I replaced that one with one from NAPA, do not have the part number with me currently, but did post it here before. It ran good for a while, about week or two until it blew the end off the coil while pushint gravel with the front blade. I figured I might have not bought the correct coil from NAPA and thought I had better go to a good source. Yep, helped pay for Charlie's next steak dinner or perhaps his yard sale addiction? I ordered a new coil from him as well as new points, air filter w/foam pre-cleaner, spark plug, fancy new coil wire to the spark plug, gasket kit for the carb (2 for bowl, carb to block, carb to air filter), new main jet needle, fuel inlet needle, seat and gasket, & points cover gasket. Only thing I DID NOT replace on the carb was the rubber gasket that sits on top of the carb where the shaft for the throttle slides through and the low speed jet on the side. Cleaned them up and reused them. Cleaned the entire carb in the carb cleaner solution that my wife still complains about the smell of. Cleaned the brass float with aresol can of carb cleaner and a tooth brush. Dropped the low speed jet into the carb solution as well and scrubbed it with a tooth brush as well. The float pin was replaced when I reassembled it. I then finally set the timing right, thanks to the help here on the forum.

Like I mentioned before, I was able to get the tractor to start easily and idle as well I was able to speed it up to over half throttle and it run fine. BUT after running for about 15 or 20 mintues, it would start to sputter, back fire (actually have small burst of flames come out of the end of muffler) and would not idle up anymore than 1/4 throttle. If I would shove the throttle back down to idle position it would run fine. It was mentioned before about possibly needed to replace that fancy black box at the front - regulator. I have not done that yet. All the wires going to it are tight, and corrosion free. The ground is clean too at both ends. So what am I missing??? Head gasket was replaced by previous owner before I bought the tractor. It doesn't show any signs of it being faulty from the stand point of soot or black on the engine where there may be blow out. The valve idea....you got me there!

 

[wcompton]

Marlin-
Sorry for the poor picture quality, with greasy hands I only handled my phone (the camera) as little as possible.

On the left is the 169's ported front cover, and the 1250's on the right. The 169's ports to the hydro (the two pair of kidney-shaped ports) you can just barely tell that they're not one continuious milled port, but a series of milled holes, and on the right the holes are a smooth milled slot. It doesn't worry me, it's just interesting, and may in fact be standard on ported pumps.

 

[jchamberlin]

Mike Patterson: Issue is heat related.

If you listed a new condenser, I missed it. If you arent't using a new one, pick one up from either Advance or NAPA. Advance has a good "Blue Streak" line of ignition parts, tell the counter-girl that you're running a 1969 Chevy Camaro or Ford Mustang

. The capacitance value is slightly different than the Cub Cadet part, but it works fine, it is what I have running on my Model 149 right now (purchased for a 1973 Chevy C/10 PU truck).

If the condenser you have is new, I would still try the method above, I'm hearing reports of poor quality condensers, so a substitution is still a valid method to eliminate the capacitance of the condenser as the source of your problem.

A second source is the adjustment and/or condition of your valves. There is supposed to be a small gap between the tappet and the valve when the engine is cold, but that gap is supposed disappear when the engine warms up. If there is no gap to begin with, then when the metal expands slightly as the heat builds up, the valve becomes too long to rest in the seat. If the problem afflicts the intake valve, the engine will backfire through the carburetor; if the exhaust valve is affected, it will backfire through the exhaust. In either case it won't run well until everything cools down.

Another issue with the valves is that the stems can get gummed up and they will start to stick. The sticking usually appears after the engine heats up a bit. The tell-tale sign for me is that the engine will NOT immediately restart after dying while hot. There is always, for me, a noticeable difference in how it turns over, it seems to spin faster, as if it has no compression, as when you remove the spark plug, because that is what, in fact, is happening. After 30 minutes or so, it will start right back up and work fine until it gets warm again.

I've always been able to free my valves with selective application of Sea Foam (the best varnish dis-solver I've ever found!) and/or Marvel Mystery Oil. If you don't run MMO in your engine oil, you might what to consider it, for at least one oil change, I find it really cleans up the inside of the engine.

Since the issues are heat related, the problem is likely mechanical, and I include a failing condenser as a "mechanical" failure which triggers an electrical failure.

The only other mechanical failure I can think of is a funky blocked muffler, but the mufflers on these Cubs just don't seem to present issues as much as automotive mufflers sometimes do.

That's all I've got, perhaps Harry or others can kick in a suggestion with more authority than myself.

Edit: It would make ME feel better if you ordered a new float when you order the new CC condenser, but I can understand your hesitancy. A problem with the float would typically show up immediately, not after warming-up. I just think it is good to have one on the shelf, if only for diagnostic purposes (I wouldn't say that if they cost $35 though).

 

[mpatterson]

Jeremiah,

Sorry, forgot to mention that in the list, I did buy a new condensor from Charlie at the same time.

 

[dtanner]

I have to take a video of my shop today for the new insurance guy.I was with one broker since 1969 and had to change because he got to $$$. New guy put a value on my shop (not seen) of 30000 $ and I said not enough $ to replace it and my tools.I gave him everything to insure and saved $887.00 a year .I thought staying loyal meant something , but I guess not anymore.When i told him I have a few rare IH Cub cadets he scratched his head and said well I will need a video or pictures to show what I have in my shop. MY Wife just

said he has a lot of tractors . I guess most garages don`t have a big twin compressor and $6000.00 in tools and over 10 tractors . I`am lost as to what I should put down for a value of these Cub`s.I told him what just my loader cost and he

.I would think I`am not alone on this and would like to know what do you guys do!?.What value do you put on a 1961 Original to start with and then there is my loader.Apparently he wants a list to submit.If I parted it all what could it come to $$.I`am lost

, my life did get complicated .THREE IS NO WAY my cubs will get parted wile I suck air.

Dang phone just rang, from no where calls to ask about my confuser lol.That was easy,I have no computers and she gasp lol. Later Don T

 

[kide]

Mike:
I concur with Harry.. Remember that it's not unusual for these engines to actually lose valve gap over times, as the valves recess into the seats, either as the seats get worn or the mating surface of the valve gets a ring worn into it... I have had this happens on several flathead engine. If the clearance gets less than what the valve stem grows when it gets hot (and remember, they get hot, especially the exhaust, the valve will never seat until it cools off again). Also, condensors have been a problem in the recent past - again, not all of my experience is with Kohler parts, and I know Charlie's parts are pretty good quality, but who knows.

A comment from one of the old farts who's been there and done that- shotgunning a problem almost never leads to a quick fix. You started (properly) with a coil, but when you've still got a problem, trying multiple fixes at the same time can make things worse. This is when you have to stop and analyze what could possibly be the problem and start down the list one thing at a time. Part of what makes this difficult is the possibility of more than one problem. In your case, working the engine hard wouldn't blow the top off the coil, other tahn from vibration, so once you had replaced the coil, with the proper one, you came up against a second problem. You did good in setting the points/timing, but at that point, cross ignition off the list (if you still suspect ignition, check for spark as soon as the engine stalls - I've actually had a test plug attached to an alligator clip already to go on one of those mystery problems).

At this point, list as many symptoms as possible - in this case hot stall. While it could be an extremely lean carb, it's doubtful that it would run perfect for 20 minutes and then stall - if you loaded the engine you'd hear it surging and hunting as it tried to meet that load. About the only other carb related hot stall is fuel starvation - plugged in-line filter, or plugged vent hole in the gas cap.

Eliminating this, you start with mechanical problems - valve clearance, inadequate oiling causing the piston to seize or blown head gasket.. I'm betting valve clearance, but check the others too - remember this isn't rocket science - the Otto cycle is Intake, Compression, Igniton, Exhaust and repeat as necessary. As my dad taught me when I was first getting rides with him when he test drove cars after working on them, "It's fuel, air, squeeze and spark, all at the right time"...... Keep us posted, that's what this forum is all about...

 

[kide]

Don - I would consider insuring the Cubs separately from your homeowners - I'm not sure if Hagertys (WWW.HAGERTY.com) writes in Canada, but I'd give them or a like company a call - note that Hagerty insures tractors, along with Bikes, Trailers, Military vehicles, etc. They insure based on agreed upon value, and I've heard good things about 'em... Just a thought.

 

[bbranstetter]

Harry B.

Thanks for your input on the 27th. Much appreciated!!

The Hy-tran is fresh in the red machine and is ready to roll.

Finally got the dash tower welded on the 122 so it doesn't feel like its going to fall off any more. Seems like I would get the replacement one bought for it.

Another box of parts ordered for both machines so will see what gets done this week....

 

[kide]

Had to show off - I'm working on getting the next generation of Cub operators established.. This is Mason, he's the long suffering next door neighbor's grandson(see old posts about what I put them poor neighbors through LOL) and he's got one of them fancy electric tractors, but it's the wrong color (ughhh....Green and Black). Fortunately, Mason has decided he'd rather have a Cub and really thinks the 129 is the best looking Cub ever built. I've got him started saying "JD Junk" when Dad's around... Grandma Dawn wore out a Green 318 before I talked them into an (off topic) ZTR and Dad runs one of them now, but Mason may have a Cub in his future if I can find the right one..

 

[dtanner]

Gerry Ide

Seems to me he likes the one he is on . You might have to give that one up some day . not a bad thought .

 

[stanner]

Don T,
Nope. there ain't any more loyalty with insurance agents anymore

State Farm

An agreed value policy is best, IMHO...also, consider a residential sprinkler system in your garage.. The premiums will go down a lot.. (at least in the US, don't know about Nord des Lignes...)

 

[jbaker]

I pulled the head on the my k301 and here is the pics
in the last picture, are the lines running diaganoly the cross hatching marks on the cylinder?

 

[dtanner]

jeff l baker
A broken ring could spin and cause that mark. For the Price of a pan gasket I would pull the piston and I would check .do you know when the rings were installed if the ends were filed ?

 

[fcurrier]

Don:

I see crosshatch. While we're kind of on the subject, who knows what about a "ball hone"? I know they're not cheap.