Archive through December 05, 2016

[jmusits]

Thanks guys! Looks like I might only have time to get the tank off and pull the head tonight so I can start my inspection. All of this advice is excellent for when I do go to pull the engine.

You guys are the best!

 

[fcurrier]

Jason, see where this link takes you:

https://www.kohler-engine-parts.opeengines.com/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&products_id=34596

Shoot for K Series, then K301, 321, etc.

 

[ekincaid]

Thanks for the help KENtuckyKEN what's wrong with your Silverado??

 

[jmusits]

Frank - thank you, great resource.

So I got the head pulled - here's the good news:
1: piston moves freely
2: both valves open and close when spinning the flywheel
3: cylinder wall looks and feels smooth above the piston when fully down

Part of the connecting rod assembly must still be intact as it will push the piston up approximately 1/2 inch from the fully down position when spinning the flywheel by hand.

There is quite a bit of carbon on the valves and piston head and on the cylinder head as well. I'll post pics when I get to my computer as I can't figure out how to resize on my phone.

Anyways...it looks like the next step is to pull the engine so I can access the connecting rod and replace it, correct?

Should I also do anything to clean the carbon build up? Should I plane the head while I have it off with the glass & sandpaper method? Anything else I should look at or do? Just don't want to overlook something while I have everything apart.

Thanks again, I'm learning a lot as I go through this process.

 

[kweaver]

Jason - Sometimes the rod will knock a chunk out of the side of the cylinder wall so when you get the pan off and see a piece of curved castiron laying in the oily pan you'll know where it came from

I clean the carbon build up off with a drill and wire wheel.
You ought to reseat the valves too if you take it all down after you get the carbon off the valves and seats.
Don't look for a rod bearing as they don't have one ...

Ethan - That's an email topic ...

 

[dschwandt]

Jason, You probably should have the crank looked at to determine it's condition as it may need at least polished or even reground in which case you will need an oversize rod.

It sounds as if you may need to "go through" it so you may as well "do it right" the 1st time as it will give you many years of service after that.

Check the top of the piston for markings such as "std." ".010". or ".020" That will tell you if it has been down before and bored oversize.

Yes, by all means clean up the head and do the sandpaper thing.

You should be able to "go through" it for around $300 (+-) including parts & machine shop work. That's about what the last one I did cost, it was a 12HP for my 126.

 

[jmusits]

Ken - Thank you, I hope that didn't happen.

David - Thanks, I was thinking about the potential for wear / damage to the crank. As you will be able to see from the pics below I will need to get the carbon buildup off of the piston before I can determine if the cylinder has been bored. I know my grandfather had the engine rebuilt awhile back. I don't know if he just honed the cylinder or had it bored out.

As promised from last night, here are the pics after removing the head.

 

[wshytle]

Jason M.-

To answer about the sandpaper and glass...definitely. You'll see some warping as soon as you get started. I use the same method especially when a new head gasket is used.

Good luck!

.

 

[hydroharry]

Ok guys - I'm gonna pipe in here with my advice for Jason. Nothing against your opinions/suggestions.

Jason - Please don't take this wrong but it's fairly clear to me you don't have a good understanding of the internal parts and operation of the engine. I don't want you to reach a point where you discover you can't finish a complete overhaul yourself. I agree with David about "do it right" the first time is best BUT... do you have all the measuring mics and tools to do it right? Measurements are critical and are in the .000 ranges. When David says about $300 that's gotta be with him doing the dis-assembly and re-assembly. I think $300 will cover machine shop work to grind the crankshaft and bore the cylinder, and new parts including a oversized piston and rod, and a gasket set. But you would have to re-assemble.

Backing up a little - first it's clear to me with all the carbon in your pics and the ridge at the top of the cylinder wall, that this engine hasn't been apart for awhile. It's doubtful to me you could get away with a quick and dirty fix but you might. You have to get the engine out of the tractor and remove the bottom oil pan, and see what actually happened here. It's a pretty good guess the rod broke. If you're lucky the rod didn't seize to the crankshaft when it broke. If it did NOT you can remove the 2 bolts or nuts holding the rod cap on the crankshaft and start getting a look at the journal on the crank where the rod attaches. If you're really lucky the crank journal will still be clean and in good condition BUT you really need to check it with a mic to determine the size and if it's within the wear specs. If it is, then the cheap and dirty fix here could be just installing a new rod.

If the rod was seized or partially seized to the crankshaft then the crankshaft will have to be removed and cleaned up and most likely ground to correct specs (it's unlikely it could just be polished but maybe). I think the small engine shop you mentioned would be your best next step. They can remove and clean up the crank, mic it and tell you what they believe is required. It may be worn to far to be ground to the usual .010 undersize. Some places will do .020 under but you'll have to find a special rod to use to do this. If this shop does the machine work (grind crank and bore cylinder) you just as well have them do your valve clean up work as well. My guess is this would probably cost you in the $300 range +/-. I would suggest you have them do the reassembly as well (assuming they are quite experienced in Kohler K series engines).

You can do the head cleanup yourself as you've already mentioned, with a piece of glass and sandpaper, or you could have them do it as well. Probably doesn't add that much to the cost, and then the engine would be all buttoned-up when you get it back.

Keep us informed of what you decide to do and keep asking any questions. Also, I'm not saying that you cannot do the complete overhaul yourself. You certainly can - but you'll need to study the Kohler manual and come up with accurate measuring methods and some special tools. There are a lot of good guys on here that can provide assistance and help describing how to do various things as you proceed.

I also noticed that you're way upstate in NY. Hopefully you have time and don't need your tractor immediately for snow work. You might want to consider seeing if you can find a good used engine (hard to determine) or even another CC unit with a good running engine.

 

[sblunier]

Jason,

Harry makes some pretty good points in his post below.

We gave you enough info to get the engine out and checked, but a good job on a rebuild is a different animal. It can be done, but study the manual and leave the decisions on good/bad measurements to a shop with the right tools.....then follow the manual EXACTLY when putting it back together.

Keep at it...you are getting there!

 

[kweaver]

Charlie - You're gonna hafta put a limit on Hydro's post ...
I was trying to read that long winded wind bag on a tiny smart phone at the hospital today.
I 'bout wore a groove in the screen swiping back n' forth !

Jason - Didn't you say earlier that somebody in your family had "rebuilt" that engine not long ago or something to that effect ?
That engine has a good looking cylinder wall from that one angle you took of it but from the carbon deposit it doesn't look like it's ever been touched. It's worse than my 122 K301 was and it was never opened up until I put rings in it.

Anyway ... get that thing rebuilt right and later on get one that you can "practice on" to rebuild yourself if you really want to get into doing things yourself. Getting dirty is fun and hearing one start up that you rebuilt yourself is about as much fun as eating ice cream !

 

[nbextermueller]

Man Harry, way to judge a guy you've never met.

We all know you want things done to 101% perfection. I'm surprised you didn't tell him he needs to make sure he had IH bolts in every hole.

I (or I should admit it was fellow member Joe Bowman) just did this same basic rebuild he's doing on my 128. It had an f'ed up piston that got smashed in the wrist pin area and was rocking in the cylinder. Basic hand tools and a torque were all it took. 2hrs first to remove the engine and find the problem. And 2 hrs the second night to swap in a replacement .020 piston and new rings. My rod has been machined for a bearing so it got a new one of those too.
Cleaned it all up and it fired up on the second rotation. New rings need to set yet and I need to change the oil again.

Jason, you can handle this fix. David's right on his estimate. They are extremely simple machines. Just remember the oil hole on the rod points towards the cam.

 

[jmusits]

Harry - you are completely right, this is a new experience for me. While I have the "10,000 foot view" understanding of the engine internals (piston goes up and down, connecting rod goes from piston to crank turining linear motion to rotational, crank spins camshaft, which in turn makes valves open and close) I'm sure I missed / messed up something there, I certainly do not know of all the tiny "bits and pieces" so to speak that make the above work. As they say, the devil is in the details...

Also, you are right...there are a lot of good guys here willing to help and answer questions. That has been apparent since I started lurking here a year ago when I inherited this tractor. It was reaffirmed yesterday with all the quick, insightful responses to my questions.

Lastly, don't worry, I didn't take it wrong. You hit the nail right on the head.

Ken - yes my grandfather "rebuilt" the engine sometime in the late 80s / early 90s. No one in my family seems to know what that entailed....maybe I will know more once I get the carbon off the piston. (Also, sorry for my long posts

).

Anyways, my plan at the moment is to get the engine pulled and see what I can see. I'll probably get things mic'd by the local engine shop and take it from there.

I'm traveling for work the next few days and then it's my daughters birthday this weekend, so I probably won't get any cub time until next week.

As always, thanks for everything guys - definitely learning a lot!!

 

[jmusits]

Nic,

We must have been typing at the same time. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I will certainly let you guys know what I do and how things turn out (with more questions along the way, I am sure).

 

[kweaver]

Jason - I pick on Harry over his post. Once he typed about half a page and I don't let him forget it ... he's getting older every minute and needs reminding

but he IS one of the top posters on here to listen to and take notes from. <font size="-2">(Earl keep trying buddy)</font>
Hey tomorrow's the 'ol lady's 37th anniversary but I'm not gonna let that keep me out of the shop. Gotta set your priorities !

 

[eford]

Oh I'll keep trying, but wow! You guys put an engine rebuild in words!
I've done a couple of small engines and a "turrible" Chevy...
I'll end up doing either a k301 or k321 next year I'm sure for either my 1450 or the cozy cab.
On a bright note my 129 I saved in that scrappers mess ran for about a minute on old gas left in it! Not well but gives a light of hope.
Since I'm close to destroying a #26 carb I wanted to put on the 100, I'm going to borrow the one off the 1200 for now and save some pennies for one from CCS. I'm going to remember Steve's suggestion on the next carb main jet I try and remove. Combine the PO and myself and, well... I broke a small bolt out in it today.

 

[eford]

Ah the 100. I ended up really liking the aluminum lift rod for the blade. I got it already on it and I think it'll handle BRS!! Oh and I know the carb linkages are different, I've taken that into consideration.

 

[mpatterson]

Okay, need some help from you 782 owners or anyone has the info please. I want to see how you have you blade lift set up. I installed my front blade to move some top soil and it sort of worked. I had the longer bracket made for the blade to clear the tractor frame as well as then new lift rod. It all worked good except for the pin to mount them together. I didn't have the correct size so I have a bolt in it for now. That will get fixed next time I go to town wil get correct pin from IH dealer. On the tractor end in have one of them there fancy brackets to extend down below the floor board so it becomes a push pull set up when lifting the hydraulic leaver. It started out working ok but eventually I ended up with no lift or lower. Have to check out in light if I bent something or what?? Anyone have the lift rod hooked direct to tractor without that bracket that puts it below the floor board? It just seems combersom to use and I think it screws up the amount of lift you can get out of the blade??
I know one thing the 782 has the power to shove snow and dirt when weighted and chained up! Wow!

 

[nbextermueller]

Mike,

Why did you convert it to push-lift? My 2072 is push-lift and I honestly hate it.

The regular lift rod with a small bend in it works just fine. To clear the side cover.

It sounds like you sheared the roll pins on the rock shaft. The amount of force it takes to push-lift a blade is waaay more than to pull it up. Just the leverage angles make it hard. My 2072 would regularly shove the blade out of the QA! I finally had to drill the frame and bolt the QA bracket to the frame.

When looking at the Manual for the 54", and there seems to be a little tab that connects the lift drop down to the mower deck lift tabs. (I don't have this piece, I'm going to make one.) It appears to tie the inner shaft to the outer shaft to take the pressure off the roll pins.

 

[mpatterson]

I had the conversation bracket in the shop from when I had the 450 blower on the 782. Have to pop the tunnel cover off to see what I did ?? So you just bent your lift arm a bit and attached it above the floor board to lift the front blade?? Do you find your lift rod flexes a lot when you lift the blade normally? The blades are not heavy to lift when on floor but when on tractor they seem to weigh a ton!??