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What do I got, And how good is it ?

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mgonitzke

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Matt Gonitzke
If the engine is/was sticking internally and not due to the PTO clutch, driveline, or mouse nest in the flywheel shroud, I'd at least pull the heads and see if there is anything obviously wrong. If it was stuck, something is wrong internally, and you may make it much worse by running the engine without correcting the problem.
 

jchamberlin

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Jeremiah Chamberlin
Ian: I'm not the expert that Matt is, but my guess is that there was a valve sticking if there is a hesitation of the period you describe. That is, there are two valve openings for every four revolutions of the crank.

My other thought, about the weak spark, is that, depending upon the vintage of your motor, there is an air gap between the flywheel magnet and the magneto that must be adjusted, as well as possibly a set of contact points, if I recall correctly. The contact points were eliminated in the later versions, again, if I recall correctly, and a "solid state" ignition system was employed in the later editions of the motor. You have to pull the flywheel off to check all this, and the nut is torqued to something like 140 ft-lbs. Plus, the crank is tapered, so you need a good puller to get it off, a steering wheel puller may work (two bolts), but I would recommend a harmonic balance style (five holes; either three or two bolts), it is stronger. Before you go to that kind of trouble, though, I would try a new spark plug; and/or lay the spark plug on the engine and try to crank it just to see if you are getting a spark at the plug itself, not just the tester. The tester is fine, I've used one, but it does "get in the way" of the spark getting to the fuel.

That being said, if there is an issue with the valve not closing, and I suspect there is, then the engine will never develop the compression necessary for combustion, even with the strongest spark. And while the engine will appear to run fine on only one cylinder, you'll still have problems in the end. Matt is correct in that the only way to tell what is really going on is to pull the heads off --it ends a lot of guessing really quick.

However, if you're getting the 80-90 PSI compression on BOTH cylinders specified in the service manual, then I would say the mechanics are OK, and focus on getting spark to the combustion chamber. With combustion and spark, engine starter fluid, gasoline, brake cleaner, carb cleaner or any number of other volatile substances sprayed down the throat of the carburetor should allow the engine to run for a minute or so. Then you can delve into the fuel delivery issues.

Just my two cents.

The more cautious approach is to check all things mechanical before adding electricity and gasoline.
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mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Update on Ian's 582. We got the engine running briefly yesterday morning. Very briefly because a spring controlling the governor was loose and the engine over revved. Fortunately I killed the engine real quick. We're going to take the engine to a shop where the mechanics can fix the leaky carburetor problem. (He's a professional with Briggs engines
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). We checked the driveshaft clutch and decided to replace the whole clutch. I've never seen a throw out bearing literally missing all the bearings. I told Ian how to get the clutch out and I've posted in the Wanted section already. Looking things over it isn't a bad little tractor. We'll also be replacing the starter motor since the back of his was a plastic and it cracked and is missing some pieces.

As soon as he gets the clutch removed we'll get some pictures posted.

I do have a question though. Can a wide frame lift bar from a 1650 be used on his 582 or does he need to get the double bend lift bar? TIA.
 

mgonitzke

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Matt Gonitzke
I think the 582 needs the double-bend bar because the engine and trans are tilted front-end up about 2 or 3 degrees on the 82 series. If it didn't need to be that way, they probably wouldn't have redesigned it, after all.
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Matt G. Thank You!!!
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That will be a "down the road" purchase then. Have to rebuild the clutch first. Can't seem to find those double disc parts though. I must not be looking in the right place.
 

sblunier

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Steve Blunier "Mr. Plow" (Central IL)
Definitely double bend bar....BTDT several times with my own 582's
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Good morning, All. I'm not having any luck finding a good used clutch for Ian's 582 and he hopes to have it out early this week. My question is how many of the other wide/narrow frame clutch pieces will swap over to the 582 clutch? TIA.... (I wish that we could get that little fella fixed up for a Plow Day this year yet. Of course I'd need a trailer.)
 

mgonitzke

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Matt Gonitzke
I don't think there is such thing as a GOOD used clutch. Why not just rebuild the existing one? The driveshaft, throwout arm, and possibly throwout bearing are different than the earlier ones, but I'd recommend the older style throwout bearing anyway.
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Matt G. So we can use the single disc clutch rather than the double disc that's on it? I can't seem to find the parts for the double disc clutch.
 

mgonitzke

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Matt Gonitzke
I don't understand what you mean by 'single disc' vs. 'double disc' clutch. All IH Cub Cadet clutches have two pressure plates and one friction disc. Got a picture?
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
I'll have to wait until Ian removes the clutch. It's a thin steel disc with two equally thin clutch discs one on each side. Hopefully he'll get at it tonight after he gets home. According to Rob at Houtz Equipment it depended on the serial number. Apparently he knows what I mean.
 

jdiederichs

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Jim Diederichs
I am confused as well, in my years of dealing with all manner of 582 and similar 1606 models, I never saw or even heard of a double disk clutch. Something tells me it may be a customer design.
Some pullers on a budget (lol) used to make a clutch disk from aluminum plates, and to beef it up more they made it into a double disk clutch by adding a center "floater" plate.

I feel differently than Matt about the newer style throwout bearing, the one where a ball bearing is fitted to a steel sliding collar. I found that these have more durability and longer life than the earlier IHC design, just my experience.
 

mgonitzke

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Matt Gonitzke
Marlin-

That's what you'll get if you buy a friction disc for any gear drive CC new. The one-piece ones are older. Dimensionally they are the same.

Jim-

The bearing itself probably lasts longer, but what about the throwout arm? I had one in my 582 for awhile and was rather alarmed at how quickly the hardened outer race of the bearing was eating through the throwout arm. The older ones have a (relatively) soft shoulder that wears faster than the throwout arm. If some sort of sacrificial washer could be put in there, I'd feel a lot better about it.
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Matt G. Thank You for helping out. We'll rebuild the clutch and go with the older style single disc.
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jdiederichs

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Jim Diederichs
What Matt says is true, the replacement clutch disc is not a solid fiber disc, but instead is a thin steel disc with a bonded lining on each side. This simply replaced the older "all fiber" disc as it is more durable.

Mat, re: throwout bearing, I agree with your assessment of wear in a usual CC application, good advice!
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
Just received a text from Ian. He's going to try tonight to remove the clutch. Hopefully he'll be able to get some pictures. (His wife made him promise to wear safety glasses at all times when he works on his Cubs.
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Which is a great thing... the ER and other bills aren't cheap.)
 

imwoodhouse

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Ian woodhouse
Afternoon guys!

Made some short progress last night. Pretty rough in there.

Pics of driveshaft in tractor
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Throwout bearing has seen better days
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Same with Friction Disc
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This pin has been grooved so badly, I cannot take out. I think I will cut in half and replace. Thoughts?
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Whole Assembly
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Side note, we noticed I did not hook up this spring when I reinstalled the carb, can anyone help on where I need to hook it back up to? I thought I had taken photos before I disassembled, but either I deleted them or didn't do it
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Thanks in advance!
 

eford

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Earl Ford
Cutting that pin shouldn't be an issue, double check on getting a replacement first though. I put a bolt in one I had, but didn't keep tractor long, and was not as informed in general about changing pins to bolts. Sorry I can't help on the carb spring, it looks nice and clean though!
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nbextermueller

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Nic Bextermueller
That is not a dual disk clutch. That is your standard everyday IH/MTD clutch disk. The metal in the middle keeps the holes from tearing out so quickly.

A dual friction disk clutch would have 2 of those disks w/ a metal floater in between them. That requires a custom setup because the driveshaft typically needs to be re drilled to allow for the extra space needed.

Aluminum clutch disk are only considered "budget" compared to the ridiculously over built and equally over expensive clutch built by Midwest Super Cub. Aluminum disks don't slip... Period! Think of them more as an on/off switch for a clutch. There is really no slipping a clutch out of the hole with one. But to work properly, the "homemade" aluminum disk still needs to be machined for proper alignment and have the faces trued up to bite properly.

As for Ian's clutch, since it looks like it has seen better days, it's worth have both pressure plates sent to a machine shop or CC Specialties to be faced and trued. Especially if he has thoughts of keeping it and using it at a plow day. That's $$ well spent to make that new disk last more than 5 years.
 

mhomrighausen

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Marlin Homrighausen
It looks like Ian's clutch release lever is also toast. CC Specialties will be getting an order for some new parts.
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