The Perfect Plow Tractor?

[jstertz]

I've really gotten into plowing this year! I had a great time at Bluniers PD IX and I looked at a lot of different rigs that people were using. This could be a potentially volitle thread because I'm sure there are many varied opinions concerning this. That is not my intention. I would like to pool the wisdom that you guys have gained through years of plowing and building plow tractors. Are there things that you have done that wasn't really necessary? I know you want good power, good traction, enough weight, and a good plow. But what are the details that make that happen? I suspect that there will be debate over tire type and where to place weights. I also expect a difference of opinion regarding GD vs Hydro. We know that hydros get really hot--has anyone experimented with some sort of cooler and a gauge to monitor temps? If running a GD in the QL and 82 series, what are the best options for a hydraulic lift? I know some of this has been covered elsewhere but I think it would be beneficial to all interested in this part of our hobby. I believe that the varied opinions and thoughts are great for us all. Also, what about a dream tractor build if money wasn't an issue? Like, has anyone ever thought of building a GD Super for plowing? What would be the potential problems with that? I know that you would need a pump for the hydro lift and power steering. How effective are duals on the land side tire?

I'm looking forward to your thoughts!!!

 

[digger]

The PERFECT plow tractor is the one that you butt sets on at any given point in time!

Kinda like a car or truck, if my butt doesn't feel good settin in it, I ain't buying it!

 

[snicklas]

Josh,

I have not built a plow tractor before, but have plowed a lot of ground with a Cub Cadet. Most of my childhood, we had a garden, a fairly large garden by some standards, it was 100' x 100' approx. and took up nearly 2 of the lots that my parents own. Every year for many years that garden was "plowed under" every fall. All the plowing on this garden that I have experience with was on a 1972 149. It had (still has) the factory turf tires, and we ran our 4 link chains when plowing. The plow is an early Brinly, with the Y shaped Brinly adapter and a single hole on the plow hitch, just like the one Shultzie has in the classifieds. This was a good set up for us, however, I know the plow was/had never been "set up right". When I was younger, my job was to be ballast. Dad drove the tractor, I rode the plow. When we were using the plow to "dig" potatoes, I would "sit" on the plow and toss potatoes to the side to be retrieved. This was all long before the internet and had no idea the plow was not set up right. We also didn't know until just a few years ago, we were actually missing a piece for the plow/adapter. For the early plows, there is an "implement steadying kit" that is what is used to adjust the slack in the hitch, and keep the plow standing straight out behind the tractor when the plow is out of the ground. Without this kit, the plow, when lifted will fall over and hit the left rear tire of the tractor, and occasionally get caught in a chain..... I have also used the same plow on my little garden behind my 1450 with turfs and 4 links, but this time, my son was the ballast...... still worked well. I am looking forward to using the plow behind my 1650, with ags, and the plow set up correctly, with the stabilizer kit. I like having the power, and the hydro lift on the tractors. My 2 workers are both hydro/hydro.... kinda spoiled.... I have only had experience with 1 GD and never plowed with it. Really would not have been able to, there was something wrong with the clutch, or a related part, and the clutch never really worked right. We even rebuilt the driveline with all new parts and it was still never quite right. Dad and I prefer hydros.... all the ones we use on a regular basis are hydros. So my perfect plow tractor would be a 149,169,1450,1650,782 with ags and a properly setup plow. More than likely I would not run any additional weight, or at least start out that way, I do have a set of 55lb each OT plastic weights, but I am ~350, so there is extra weight on the rear wheels.... After looking at all the pics and vids from PD IX, I am going to try and be there in 2016 with my 1650 and give it a try.....

 

[dfrisk]

Wyatt, Travis, Steve B. & I were discussing land wheel duals last Saturday. We all agree'd, they're just for show when plowing with a GT. Even on full size tractors, until your land tire is slipping more than 10-15%, the dual isn't even touching the ground!

There's been a couple GD SGT's built, not sure if anyone's plowed with them, they were built for quarter-scale tractor pulling. The one and only time I took my 982 to Blunier's to plow I was less than pleased with it's performance. I had 125# of frt weight that I REALLY didn't need on the tractor. The front weight seemed to make it harder for the rear tires to get a good bite on the ground and start to transfer some of that weight on to the rear axle. Even with a shorter frame tractor, (non-SGT) I REALLY don't see a need for much added front weight on a GT. I stopped running added front weight on about PD #2 on my NF GD. There seemed to be one brand of tractor there Saturday that had WAY too much added weight for whatever reason. They ALWAYS have massive amounts of added weight... tractors themselves must be too light so need lots of ballast.

Wyatt has made a terrific plowing tractor with his Wheatland, lots of HP, THREE plowing gears, "Fast", "Faster", and "FULL WARP SPEED SCOTTY!"

I have neither PS or hyd lift on my GD NF plowing tractor of choice. Yes, either one or both would be nice, but for the hour or so of plowing it could do each year, not worth the effort to install.

We were noticing Saturday that larger diameter tires pulled better plus gave more ground clearance. I've had problems plowing in the past where the bottom of the rear end & differential would drag trash and almost high center my CC. Larger diameter tires are a quick fix for that, but increases the torque load on gears & shafts in the final drive. The whole tractor would have to be designed for those taller tires.

A planetary reduction gearbox that can be shifted on the fly would be great, AKA, IH's Torque-Amplifier, slow down on head lands, steep hills, tough spots, etc. It worked good enough for IH to keep it in production from 1954 till 1985!

 

[eford]

Not as much experience as some here on this topic, but my 1200 with 23x10.5x12 rear ag tires plows fine. Manual lift, no spring assist. I have plastic 50 lbs. weights on both rear tires. I've plowed fine with it in the past. I'd add a spring assist and MAYBE 20 lbs. of weight on the front, possibly just fluid fill the front tires, but have not done that yet. Hydro/hydro would be great, I've plowed with several friends who had them and love that, but the old strong arm does just fine in whatever I'm doing for me. My other tractor is a Case 220 with manual lift. I plowed twice with it and have decided to make it hydraulic lift, the Case design is up or down, and with how the sleeve hitch is, you really have to lift it up, higher than my 1200. I plowed with that with 23x8.5x12, turf and chains. number of links in between is uneven. I made that set from discarded old farm(?) tractor chains I picked up. It worked well, until my worn out mech. fuel pump sucked in oil and the field looked like it was on fire at the last one at Travis' I attended. This one now has an elec. pump and I found parts to change the lift. Plowing is addictive when you only do it maybe twice a year.
If money was no object, I'd just resto my two with the added assists, and a creeper for the 1200. I've run somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-ish tractors of various makes/models and liked different sorts with all of them.

 

[kshultz]

Charlie,
That must be my 73. I can plow all day sitting in the seat.

 

[dschwandt]

I'm w/Earl on this one. My 1200 does a fine job IMHO. If it didn't always jump out of 2nd gear, it would be great!. But I guess that is something I'll just have to live with. Several folks last weekend told me that GD's all do that, I dunno.

I also have a 1000 that I have plowed with but don't recall having the gear popping out problem w/it.

 

[jstertz]

This is great info guys! Exactly what I was hoping for. In response to Dave S statement about slipping out of gear. I was told that the gear for second and reverse is shared and that the way it is cut to slide both ways makes it more prone to jump out of those two gears. Can anyone here with more experience than I confirm or contradict that statement? I was told that when you couple that design with wear and tear (read abuse) over the years, it makes them prone to jump out of second when under a load. I know that many pullers design a latch of sorts to hold them in Second. My uncle suggested an external tension spring--I wonder if that would work???

 

[vthomley]

I've plow with many different models, hydros and gear drives, and Charlie is correct, the one you're on and your butt feels good sitting on it is the best.

My Model 122 has been the perfect Plow Tractor for me! Until plowing in Montrose, MN earlier this October. I had a different harder seat on it and it was instantly uncomfortable. This pics from a few years ago shows the dual being used as ballast as Denny mentioned. This 122 has a 19 tooth 2nd, it will pull anything, plow or anything else, if it has traction. I have a spring assist on it, lifting the plow is no problem.

At Montrose I plowed with the below 1806 and it was very comfortable and is a smooth running Cub. 2 draw backs on this were the 17 tooth second was maybe a bit slow but definitely not fast. The other is the lift handle is a long ways forward when its all the way in the sown position. I can see this pushing my 122 to be my favorite.

 

[rbeem]

Josh,
Good topic.
I love my "148" it's simple and is strong...but it gets lost in the crowd when it comes to cool points. We all like the cool factor!
I do not have many lengthy conversations about my rig, despite a pretty lengthy list of mods.
So, for plow days if you were to build something, it pays to turn things up a notch for cool points.
Perfect, really, really depends on lots. Some days I think watching an Original labor away is perfect, othertimes seeing a 430 Deere have it's way with the field is perfect.

I "confined" myself to certain things on my "148" build. It is gear drive, manual lift, 14 hp. No frills, no PTO no lights (usually).
I think it is nearly perfect...for what its design limits are.
Now, dare me to dream and build a "perfect machine".
After a half day on the "148" I would like to hop on this as #2.
SGT frame (2072 style sheet metal) with Kubota gas or diesel, custom geared gear drive with (2) plowing gears...all MWSC internals.
Not a fan of Cat 0, so I would stick with sleave hitch and a hydraulic lift for sure!
LED lights all over the place and a cub holder round things out.
Red, has to be Red.

I stay out of 2nd for the most part. I will be building a custom trans in the near future with dual plowing gears and heavy detents and shafts to address some weak points.

 

[rbeem]

And....I should repaint my 10" plow!

 

[jstertz]

Rick B--I actually get a kick out of your "John Deere" plow. You are the only one of us cub guys that can say you drug a Deere around in the dirt behind your Cub all day at PD!!!

. On a serious note, I really like your "148". It is a stout machine. It may not be as flashy as some but the image that is forever stuck in my mind is you striking out at BC I with that thing. It is just Rollin that Iowa dirt!

I really like some of the ideas that you guys are putting forward. It is fun to think of what you could build to make the ultimate plowing machine. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate those nearly stock original 7hp tractors out there turning soil. It never ceases to amaze me what those little tractors are capable of. However, I also like to see tractors that have had specific mods to them to make the stronger, faster, more trouble free, and durable.

Kraig--has Wyatt posted any pictures of his Wheatland anywhere? I've seen the close up pics in the better than original thread and the back shot on his profile but I haven't seen any other pics!

Wyatt--I'd love to see some pics of that beast and hear why you made the modifications that you made on it for plowing...

 

[kmcconaughey]

Joshua, here's a few photos of Wyatt's "Wheatland" custom:

 

[rbeem]

Now, if we can convince him to get it dirty!

 

[jstertz]

What a sharp looking machine! I think I'm in love--LOL! I want to know more about the details of what he has done to it performance wise and drive line. My son Caleb saw it and immediately said that is the color scheme he wants to use when we restore his 125 a few years from now.

 

[jstertz]

Speaking of GD's--what can all be done with the gear ratios in the creeper, tranny, and rear end? The 100 that I sold to my cousin is definitely faster in second gear but it feels faster in all the gears. Was the creeper available in different ratios? What about the rear axle? Just curious how much flexibility I have in setting up a good plowing gear. Obviously conditions will affect this, but what do you guys feel is the optimal plowing speed?

 

[dfrisk]

JOSH - Creepers are ALL 4:1 reduction ratio. They're fine for running a roto-tiller, snow blower, but IMO, have no place on a moldboard plowing tractor. WHY on EARTH would you need or want to go that slow?

Ring & pinion ratios are all the same, all my parts books are in the shop, but I suspect IH made them about 4.11:1, maybe 3.73's. Far as I know, they're ALL the same.

IH did make 15, 16, & 19 tooth 2nd gear sets. 15T = 3.2 MPH, 16T = 3.5 MPH, 19T = 3.9 MPH. The Originals & 70/100's are supposed to have 15T, 71,72, & 73 & larger have 19T. And seems like around the start of the WF's IH made 16T. I'm probably off on those times, it's ALL in the parts books, you can look it up. I have a 19T in my 72, great plowing gear, too fast to mow. My old 70 SON has, has a 15T, great mowing gear, too slow to plow!

The top sliding gear shaft in a CC is kinda a weak spot, too much HP and great traction will twist them in two pieces. Supposedly 15 HP is the magic number on the stock shaft. There are stronger shafts available made from alloy steel, plus over-drive reduction gear sets that increase the amount of HP the top shaft can take because it spins faster and makes the whole tractor move faster, up to 47% faster.

Since CC's are the tractor of choice in garden tractor pulling, there's several companies that make after-market heavy duty parts. Check out Midwest SuperCub, Lakota Racing, etc.

It's possible with the right parts and a boat load of MONEY to make a CC withstand 80-100+ HP. Not too shabby from a rearend/transmission that started life in a NINE horsepower farm tractor!

 

[sblunier]

Denny,

Wide frames went to 17T 2nd gears and stayed that way through the end (my yellow MTD 582 is a 17T).

"Started life in a NINE horsepower farm tractor"......with bull gear reduction gears AFTER the transmission!!!!!!!!

 

[dfrisk]

STEVE - Ahhh 17 tooth. not 16T. Should have consulted my MWSC catalog before I posted.

Yep, WHERE reduction takes place and how much reduction takes place makes a whole lot of difference. That trans was designed to take everything that cute little 60 CID 4 cyl flathead engine could dish out. Having a 30 CID or more single beat it up thru a 7:1 reduction is harsh treatment.

 

[jstertz]

Thanks Denny for the info and Steve for the "correction". Steve, I know that you really like that little 582. I also know that you have done ALOT of hydro powered plowing, and so my question is, what do you think of that 17T for plowing? Do you ever wish it was a little faster? Looks like it would go about .3 mph faster with a 19T. Is it worth it? Denny commented on the hp handling capabilities. I had a beat up 1535 Cyclops GD that had a "15 hp" Magnum in it. The 582 has a 16hp. Vincent's 1806 is running a Mag18. So these must be capable of handling at least what those engines can dish out in stock form. I know that turning soil really does stress the drivetrain. These are all interesting thoughts and they give me a lot to "chew on" as I contemplate what will be the "best" plow tractor for me...