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On giving advice.....(an opinion)

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kweaver

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KENtuckyKEN
Balanceing a Gear drive tractor on two wheels wasn't the topic ?

Wayne - You sound like my cousin , he tore up equipment and I fixed the equipment.
I used the tractors to go to the creek to go fishing, clear the snow on the road to get to my girlfriend's house, and to get to the country store 4 miles away to buy smokes ...
Break a tractor ...
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kide

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Gerry Ide
Actually, if you read the start of this thread it wasn't about "to balance or not", it was about the <u>quality of advice</u> that sometimes pops up on the forum...
 

kmcconaughey

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Kraig McConaughey
Gerry, with that in mind, I'd advise people to NOT try doing wheelies with a Cub Cadet.
 
J

jott

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yeahhh... dont do that. On my birthday one year it was raining and a buddy of mine came over and we put the duals on on my first 123 and he basically doing was pulling wheelies but not quite.I told him NOT to to do it anymore, being the stupid idiot that he was,it resulted in a $300 fix, which he paid none of.It shattered the front hydro shaft pin, then the driveshaft got wore, so i had to replace it. new driveshaft, driveshaft coupler, pin, rag joint plus my time of fixing it. so <font size="+1">dont pull wheelies!!</font>
 

kide

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Gerry Ide
Kraig:
I think Honda should have put that on the old 3 wheel ATVs, too.....
 

kweaver

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KENtuckyKEN
NO!
THEY SHOULD HAVE PUT A 4<sup>th</sup> WHEEL ON IT !!!!!!

Wheelies are FUN
 

aaytay

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"Actually, if you read the start of this thread it wasn't about "to balance or not", it was about the quality of advice that sometimes pops up on the forum..."

Gerry, Kendall, Kendell, etc-
I'm assuming (which is probably a dumb move on my part) that with this entire thread you are refering to the FAQ about removing balance gears, which was "written" by me.

What's interesting to me about this entire thread is that advice was NEVER given. The information in that FAQ was simply a post (made by me) of how I removed the balance gears from a 14hp Kohler. Someone thought it was worthwhile information, and and recommended that Charlie put it in the FAQ, so he did. Having done this proceedure already once before, I see nothing wrong with this info being in the FAQ. More on THAT later...

While I can't agree more with your thoughts about these being "precision" machines (where hammers and chisels should NOT be used internally) I do have a couple of questions..

1) Have you ever broken apart a balance gear with a hammer and chisel? Have you ever seen how little tapping it actually takes to break one of these things? While I obviously can't account for what happened to the person who "tweaked" the stubshaft doing this, perhaps he didn't tap it on an "open web" of the gear, I can tell you it take very little effort to break one of these gears apart.

These gears break apart with a little "tap, tap, tap"...not the "beating on the inside of an engine" as you say which makes one envision full-blown hammer swings. In my case, when the gears did break, they crumbled....no....folded inward. There was no shattering, no flying shrapnel, etc. It was really a very gentle process. Without becoming inflamatory here, in my opinion it seems somewhat "wrong" to question something you've never tried yourself.

2) Suppose you've got a good running Kohler. Probably the original build to the tractor that has no extra noises or smoke when it runs. By chance you have removed the oil pan, maybe to replace a bad oil-pan gasket, and in doing so you find that the balance gears are loose on their stub-shafts. NOW WHAT????? I think we all agree that we should never just put the engine back together and just use it as such.

Are we all supposed to "man-up" as you put it and tear apart a perfectly good running engine to recitfy this balance-gear issue? I know I wouldn't leave those gears in there. I've heard a lot of stories about good-running engines that lost their balance gears (through the side of the engine block!) which to me implies that the balance gears and stub-shafts wear out more quickly than the other moving components of these engines. If you ask me, we should inspect the condition of the balance gears on engines that we do not know a history of as it is a fact that they will find a way "out" of the engine when their time comes. Personally I would much rather own an engine in which the previous owner has removed the balance gears (Yes, even via the method described in the FAQ.......GASP!!!) than an engine that has loose balance gears of unknown condition.

I know you're of the "leave the balance gears in there" camp, and honestly I don't see anything wrong with that. I prefer that they are NOT in any of my engines, but that's just me. A good friend of mine said it very well when he said that he preferred to keep the balance gears in his engines, but specified that they need to be in good physical condition or they WILL come through the side of the block. We disagree on "to balance gear or not" but agree that we wouldn't leave loose gears inside an engine. So, the question remains.. Good running engine with loose balance gears.....now what???

Finally, you're proabably not going to find any printed documentation coming directly from Kohler saying that these gears should be removed from their engines. Think about it... In today's "litigation society" what company in their right mind would print a document saying that something inside their engines is doomed for failure?? We already know that Kohler produced these engines both "with" and "without" the balance gears, not to mention that we've heard from people who formerly worked at Kohler telling us that they do not include the balance-gears in their rebuilds. That's good enough data for me to feel comfortable not to have them in any of my engines.

At this point I could and tell you what I think of this ENTIRE thread, but I'm going to keep THAT opinion to myself!
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dtanner

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Donald Tanner
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Well I`am some happy that they are pooping on you and not me
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. But these guys have to have someone to poop on
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.
I remove all the balance gears here because I don`t think they measure up in quality to the rest of the engine! There its out to take a swipe at.
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wshytle

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Wayne Shytle
AayTay-

Nice little write up, Thanks for the info. I just want to say I'm the last "gear remover" and the one that bent the shaft slightly. I made sure of where the webbing was but that critter didn't want to crumble. I had to really wack it and did so in a couple of different spots over the webbing.

I also agree with your view as to doing a complete disassembly vs hammer and chisel. I'll take the hammer and chisel every time. I'm getting ready to destroy a perfectly good pan gasket just to check and see if an engine I'm getting ready to install needs a gearectomy or not. Even if it has good bearings the balance gears will be removed if present. We all check the oil to make sure our engines are safe to run; why not check for anything else that can destroy the engine in an instant.

Thanks again...good write up in the FAQs too!
 

kide

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Gerry Ide
Art:
Heck no I haven't, and won't break 'em out ... I'd note that if you check back to about the third post, you'll see it started with "apologies to Art and Wayne".... Quite honestly I'd forgotten the FAQ or I'd probably have just held my peace - my reaction was to the several posts following Wayne's experience that resulted in potential damage to the case - if it took that much force to break the gear, then something's amiss. When I wrote the initial post, it was reaction to that and preceding posts by some with far less experience than you, freely giving out "smash 'em out" advise to ANYONE who had a rattle in their Cub, with no consideration to whether it might be the hood, driveshaft hub, PTO or their pocket change..

I agree with your friend and I think I've made that clear - bad bearings or worn shafts should be replaced if you're going to keep 'em. As far as the "man up" statement, yup, my background involves being raised by a mechanic/machinist/JOT who worked the latter part of his career in a tool and die shop where the normal tolerance on stuff was half tenth...I've been involved all my life in mechanical activities that require complete teardown and reassembly, but that's my way, the way I have done engine work and doesn't have to be anyone else's.

I sincerely apologize for peeing on your toes !!
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kweaver

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KENtuckyKEN
Kid<sub>e</sub> - Haven't you learned yet that at your age you have to "lift" it up.
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kide

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Gerry Ide
Kentuck:
Perhaps I didn't make it quite clear, but in this case, I'd rather have been standing downwind and got my own shoes wet than upwind ........

I have a K321 to tear down this summer.... I'm going to take the gears out Art's way (or at least try)...
 

kweaver

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KENtuckyKEN
I looked at the FAQ removal method to see what the hype was about. I don't buy the ease of it breaking. I think it was a weak gear to begin with. I know they're not engineered to take an impact from the side like that but I still think it was weak and probably that Art got to it just in time to save his block.

I have a question. Are questions allowed here ???? Well they ARE now ...

Does the (right side up) top balance gear mesh with anything other than the bottom gear ?
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
Whew boy..... To get THIS topic back on track. Think I mentioned my problems with my old 125 CC 2-stroke Amerachi Harley-Davidson motorcycle 40 yrs ago here before. Piston over-heated due to a too hot spark plug during an "Enthusiastic" day of riding, off-road in loose fall-plowed ground, crusing the local highways/byways at full speed, 50-55 MPH. Top ring land broke off the piston and was "swallowed" by a transfer port into the crankcase. $250 engine rebuild to a $350 bike and about 400-500 miles later an even MORE catastrophic blow-up. A small piece of aluminum piston migrated into the roller rod bearing skating one roller which resulted in scoring the crank pin and half the crankshaft. Mechanic didn't totally clean the crankcase during the rebuild, not sure it could have been cleaned without total disassembly. Dealer rebuilt the engine AGAIN. (Mechanic happened to be Evil Kneival's favorite tuner for his XR-750 jump bike BTW, also won the Dayton 200 motorcycle race something like FOUR times) As much time as I spent at that dealer you would THINK I'd have run into EK at least ONCE!

Second rebuild cost me $25. Have to say the shop did fine by me that time!

A small piece of metallic debris caused the second failure. But the design of that engine and a Kohler are totally different. Only failure mode for a Kohler I can see would be IF a small piece of metallic debris entered the oil hole in the rod cap and scored the rod bearing surface of the rod or crankshaft. With the rotary & recipricating motions of the big end of the rod I would think anything like that would eventually be flushed out of that oil hole.

I personally think putting a "Window" in a Kohler block to watch oil circulation from the splash system would be VERY interesting. At 3600 RPM I really can't imagine there's very much oil left in the bottom of the pan. Anybody got a block with a hole in it? Piece of 3/8" thk Plexiglass or Lexan, some RTV & JB-WELD, couple small bolts, nuts & flat washers and we could have a GREAT PD demonstration!
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
KEN - Top gear meshes with the crankshaft gear. I "ASSUMED" the top gear was driven by the bottom gear in a post and I think it was Wayne who straightened Me out on that fact.

I was thinking if the top gear was driven by the lower gear, just pull the lower gear off which comes out easily and leave the top gear alone hanging motionless on the stub shaft until the next rebuild.

And Your question about being able to ask questions..... Ask away.... We love these discussions as much as posted pictures!
 

kweaver

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KENtuckyKEN
That's what I was thinking when the Evil Gears was posted on the Main Forum. Just leave the top gear in since it's the one that needs the 30 pound sledge to get it out.
 

kide

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Gerry Ide
The issue of ANY kind of debris ending up in the engine was one of my concerns...I dunno, it's just that you can tell how YOU did something and you assume that everyone is going to take the same precautions as you did...see - if I say any more I'm gonna make somebody mad
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I gotta go work on the top end of a BBC race engine today. It's got iron heads w/rocker stud girdles that I'd LIKE to take a hammer to!!!
 

dfrisk

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Dennis Frisk
DAVE R. - Yep.

Right next to HARDEE's. Last time I was thru Kewanee 4 yrs ago they'd REALLY changed since 1970/'72.

Funny thing was, HANK, owner of the dealership back then puttered ALL over Kewanee on an identicle bike to Mine for years. My Best friend all thru middle & High School had a two year older version of the same bike. Passed thru THREE Boys and ran fine the whole time. Guy a year older than me in HS rode a year newer bike than mine from Geneseo to the Grand Canyon and back and only fouled ONE spark plug the whole trip. I was lucky to ride for ONE 2-1/2 gal. tank of gas/oil premix without having to run to Kewanee for parts! My bike was a year old and very slightly used when I bought it, seem to remember it had 500 to 1000 miles on it.

Stupid stuff would happen. Riding down picked corn rows one late fall afternoon...25-30 MPH, corn stalk sticking up hit the ignition coil under the gas tank above the cyl. head... dented the coil can shorting out the windings. Engine stopped like I'd turned the key off!

I always thought if I had got the 100CC BAJA bike I'd have had better luck keeping it running, but I needed something street legal. I rode it a LOT! Not that many miles but it was run a couple times/day every day almost year-round.
 
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