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K341 Balance Gears Removal?

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K

kpeaney

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I am going to have to rering my K341AQS. I plan to remove the balance gears at this time. Will a rebalance be needed for a stock, non pulling engine? Of course, while inside, I will check for out of tolerance wear at all locations. Just don't want to pull crank unless needed. This is a factory replacement engine that has set for ? years and smokes enough to keep the mosquitoes at bay for several hundred yards. Any and all info will be appreciated. Thanks.
 
I think pulling the gernade gears is good for engine longevity. On a BIG engine like that I'd recommend balancing the crankshaft. Crankshaft removal will be required, as will rod & piston removal. In fact, I'd contact Dave Kirk and send your whole crankshaft off to him to be precision balanced, http://www.kirkengines.com/

While balancing is not "required" those K341's shake a LOT and even when balanced still shake a lot but it's money well spent. Dave balanced my K321 and it shakes less than my non-balanced K241 it replaced.

You should check the rod throw for roundness and size, rod cap fit, camshaft end play, and cyl. bore for diameter, roundness, and taper. A good small engine or automotive engine shop can do this quickly and cheaply as well as lightly hone the bore so your new rings seat properly. They can also measure your crankshaft & rod. You may need to replace the conn rod to get the proper clearance on the rod throw, and since the OEM rods are diecast, mostly made of aluminum which fatigues in use to the point of eventual failure, I'd replace the rod anyhow. It may be more $$$$ than you expected to pay for the rebuild but those K341 blocks are worth as much as some V8 car engines so making sure they don't get holes blown in the sides is money well spent.

There's lots of other neat stuff on Dave's website you may want to invest in. His PointSaver ignition is great, the billet alum. breather cover, the Blue Bosch coil, etc.
 
Thanks, Dennis. Looks like I will be saving money for several months to be able to do this. Fixed income sucks. I had thought about pulling the plug and pouring a small amount of MMO in. Then let it set for several days. Don't know if this would help or not. The outside appearance of the engine is fairly clean, very little oil leakage, anywhere. Makes me think the replacement was not too long before it was put out to 'pasture'. The person I bought it from got it with the purchase of the property and I believe when the mower got bad, he just parked it.
Do you need to use IE for kirkengines?
 
I've not a fan of MMO, think I may be the only one here in fact. If it was me I'd try a couple oil changes with IH 30W low ash oil. My Dad actually made that switch years ago when it was suggested in one of the books written about CC's, even though it was recommended in EVERY operator's manual for IH supplied gasoline & LP gas engines. He said oil consumption and smoking decreased a LOT.

All I have on my PC is IE. You might try the link above because Dave is a sponsor of this site also.
 
Kenneth, 1 1/2 years ago I had the engine rebuilt in my 149. I didn't have time myself to do this one, so I took it to a semi local shop with a very good reputation with old kohlers. The first thing I told him I wanted done was the balance gears removed. Log story short, he talked me into keeping them. New bearings and checked for tolerances and the like. The originals had been there since 1971 or so and never a problem. Now the motor is redone and runs like a dream. I know this goes against what a lot of forum members think about "grenade" gears, but CC put them there for a reason. (And that wasn't to blow your block into a million pieces either.) If your motor is 30 years old and never rebuilt, something sooner or later is going to let go. Just my two cents, Nick
 
Thanks for your input, Nick. I am digesting all reply's and will make the call when I get into the motor.
I warmed up the engine the other day and pulled the plug right after shut down. Poured the Marvel Oil down the hole, put the plug back in and let it set. See what happens there.
Read elsewhere someone had a 'smoker' and found a blown head gasket to be the problem. I soaked the sheet metal bolts with Acetone/ATF. May try removing upper metal to take a look at the head area soon. Does the exhaust shroud have to come off the get in there?
KennyP
 
Nick-

First of all, CC didn't put the balance gears there, Kohler did. If you talk to several small engine mechanics instead of one you might get a different outlook. I'd also ask that mechanic how many Kohlers he owns and uses too. It's not the gear themselves but the needle bearings that fail in just about all cases. I've only removed four or five sets but I found needle bearings in the oil pan on two of those jobs. If you're a gambler then go for it but I'd do a search and view some photos of failed bearings and picture windows caused by something that could have been avoided. Bottom line is your engine can't be ruined by something that ain't there.
 
Wayne, thank you. I am not very knowledgeable about these engines, so any and all info is a big help to me. I can't afford to blow this motor, even a complete rebuild would take time to get the money for. It is definitely a newer motor due to the gray color, so I am hoping not much is needed to get it to stop smoking, or at least be on a more acceptable level. Removing the sheet metal will at least let me know if other conditions are a part of the problem.
I joined this and other forums so I could learn and through everyone's feed back, I am. Thank you all.
KennyP
 
NICK - From posts here there actually have been failures of the gears themselves, they're under a LOT of stress since by design they are so out of balance. The tiny needle bearings wear, and get sloppy and hammer the retaining rings that keep the bearings & gears on the stub shafts. Then the gears slide off the shafts and beat the daylights out of the crankshaft and typically cause the rod to break.

Plus properly replacing the gears requires new stub shafts to be replaced in the block, proper shimming & timing the gears to the crankshaft, new bearings & retaining rings. Kohler even designed & sold a special tool to time the gears.

If I was the owner of a small engine shop I also would recommend replacing all the parts involved in the balance mechanism, it's additional parts & labor income. Plus if a customer complains about his rebuilt engine vibrating more or even worse, having a gear come loose and knocking a hole in the block you'd have to rebuild a LOT of engines and do tune-ups for months to recoup the expense of replacing the customer's engine.

Since these old K-series engines perform so well I feel it's best to try to make them last as long as possible. They seem to run well on today's low octane gas, start and idle well, make a lot of torque for their displacement. The newer twin cyl. engines with OHV/OHC and emission tuning don't perform near as well IMHO or last as long.
 
my opin. is to take them out the gears are rated for 3600 rpm i build some motor in my time and i had one that broken off and got between the crank and push out of the side of the block had to be run higher rpm or the gov. gear melted because they are plaste and not metal like the old model
 
Hmmmm balance gears - I knew my ears were burning for some reason..Dennis - I agree with your comment about small engine shops taking the "safe" route (safe from the customer relations standpoint, IF they replace all the parts and know how to properly assemble and time them..)

Hootin' on MMO?? nothing smells better and MMO top end oilers DID keep a lot of Y block Ford top ends together after the oil galleys plugged...

Back to watching Swamp Loggers (the only decent reality work show on....)
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I knew if anything could bring Gerry around, talk of balance gear removal would do it. Great to hear from you Gerry. Don't be a stranger!
 
Gerry, Glad you posted, it would be good to have you back.
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WELCOME BACK GERRY!

There's nothing like talking Gernade Gears to get the attention of old Hot-Rodders like Gerry.

And I agree with Greg & Dave, it'd be great to have you here frequently!
 
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