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Kirk Engines, Inc Cub Cadet Used Parts CADET CONNECTION Cub Cadet Specialties Cub Cadet Specialties

converting 1450 engine rail to non rail type mounting

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rfcampbell

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has anyone tried to take a quiet line engine rail system on a 1450 cub and convert it to a engine direct to frame mount like a 149 used besides me? I have done this and no, it isn't easy and honestly not worth all the hours labor and engineering and welding I used a oil pan as a reference guide and a template with a lot of measuring going on and a lot of patience Of course I cant use a 149 mechanical pto clutch being there are no bushings in the sides of the frame So its a 1450 electric clutch type It been easier to just use a 149 cub frame to begin with, oh well
 

kmcconaughey

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If you wanted it directly mounted, as in no rubber ISO bushings I would think the best way would be to replace the rubber bushings with solid bushings. Probably best to stay with the rubber bushings and do the rail modification of adding in a cross bar like the later Cubs had. Or just get the newer style with the crossbars and remove the one crossbar that interferes. Photos by Bryan McMeen.

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rfcampbell

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u misunderstood my post What I meant was that has anyone modified changed a 1450 cub frame that originally used the idiotic engine cradle rail design to a direct engine to frame mounting like the 149 cubs used? In other words modified the actual 1450 frame to accept directly bolt the engine on the frame like the 149 cubs did eliminating the 2pc [lh rh] rail system? it can be done if u have patience a lot of time and like lots of work Personally I never liked the 2pc rails and failure prone rubber munts cub cadet used in their 1250-1450-1650 I rather bolt the engine directly to the frame like the 129-149-169 cubs used
 

kmcconaughey

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No, I fully understood what you were asking. I saw your post this morning and waited for someone that had also done that same mod to post. When I got home from work and saw that no one had posted I decided to offer two alternate options to the rubber bushings. Solid bushings and the rail mod. The rail mod helps the rubber bushings to last longer. Solid bushings would be an easy way to solid mount the engine with very little work or fabrication.
 

rfcampbell

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yes, I know about the steel solid bushings out there but getting to them taking out the engine is more hard to do than the older 149 engine bolted to frame design At the time I didn't have a extra 149 frame to use so this is why I modified a 1450 frame I suppose I like challenges NOT Next time I will use a 149 frame instead of modifying a 1450 frame This cub will have a 149 dash tower and the hydraulic control valve will be as they were on a 149 on the LH side of the dash tower not mounted on the steering column in the way as the 1450 cubs were Of course the 149 dash tin had no electric pto clutch switch hole so I relocated the switch near where the 2 fuse holders would been at on a 1450 cub And the hydro lever is the older 149 lever located under the steering column outside on the dash I have another 1250 cub im restoring and I will use the 2pc rails and rubber mounts If the ''rail mod'' is the steel support welded to each rail to tie them together making it more stable then yes I did this by welding a 1/4x1 inch flat bar to each rail I wonder why cub cadet never thought of doing this?
 

mgonitzke

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... steel support welded to each rail to tie them together making it more stable then yes I did this by welding a 1/4x1 inch flat bar to each rail I wonder why cub cadet never thought of doing this?
They did. See 1282 and all subsequent models with a K-series or Magnum single.
 

dkirk

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I don't understand why anyone would want to convert a tractor with a single-cylinder, rubber mounted engine, to solid mounts. True, the mounts eventually fail but they are easy to replace - much easier that converting to a hard mount system. Isolating engine vibrations from the frame makes for much improved comfort while operating the tractor. Can someone explain what the advantages are in solid mounts?
 

rfcampbell

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well, the 1282 was built at the tail end of the international cub lines before MTD bought out the cub cadet name Funny thing is it was a improvement introduced a little too late
 

dschwandt

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Removing the engine from a 1450 is not that much more difficult from removing one from a 149, IMHO.
The 1650 I did last winter is the smoothest running Cub I have.
And the 1450 I am presently working on will be as well as it will have a 341 heart transplant till I can find a decent 321 for it. We will see if the balance plate on the crank I got from you will make any difference.
 

rfcampbell

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don't u have a 321 already u can use or rebuild? or are u looking for one, and if so, are u wanting just a block a short block or a complete running or rebuildable 321 u can rebuild? BTW try removing the back 2 bolts with a wrench on a 1450 rail system when the bolt head has worn a hole in the flywheel cover because the rubber mounts are gone and the bolt head is inside the flywheel housing Of course if u don't need to keep these 2 bolts u can cut them off from the bottom outside of the frame but none of this will happen on a 149 right?
 

dschwandt

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Bob, ,
The 321 that was in the1450 got a bad rap when the machine shop discovered a crack in the block.
Hence the 341 that will take it's place for now anyway.
I just pull the 4 mounting bolts from the pan to pull the engine leaving the rails in place.
Never been an issue
 

digger

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I don't understand why anyone would want to convert a tractor with a single-cylinder, rubber mounted engine, to solid mounts. True, the mounts eventually fail but they are easy to replace - much easier that converting to a hard mount system. Isolating engine vibrations from the frame makes for much improved comfort while operating the tractor. Can someone explain what the advantages are in solid mounts?
I can! It's cause they are to lazy to take the time to fix it right! Plain and simple!
 

rfcampbell

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I can! It's cause they are to lazy to take the time to fix it right! Plain and simple!
if u have that much vibration that u cant drive or run the tractor then u are a snowflake or your engine has serious problems Find me one [1] rubber mounted cub that has never had any cracked sheet metal parts on the engine from vibrating in its life or someone hasnt added countless different attaching bolts screws or braces brackets to replace missing stripped out bolts screws threads to keep the paper thin tin attached Yes its ''easier'' to ''replace'' those rubber bushings but on a solid frame mount engine did u have to replace anything rubber? no Adding the rubber mount system was cubs lazy quikie fix avoiding fixing the problem with the kohler crank I had a 12hp 301 engine I had accidentally used a 321 14hp crank in it and no vibration issues Steel frame directly mounted oil pan cubs never used rubber a inferior material thus eliminating 4 bolts 4 nuts 8 mounting rubbers 2 rails total of 18 extra parts btw its not that I had a 149 extra frame to use at the time so I used a 1450 frame instead If u see this change I did to this frame u couldnt tell my work from a factory 149 cub frame A cub was supposed to be easy for a common person to work on until they started adding 18 more extra parts that will fail need replaced as a easy quick fix So I did something different but to each his own its a free country
 
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rfcampbell

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Bob, ,
The 321 that was in the1450 got a bad rap when the machine shop discovered a crack in the block.
Hence the 341 that will take it's place for now anyway.
I just pull the 4 mounting bolts from the pan to pull the engine leaving the rails in place.
Never been an issue
did u remove the front axle to get access to the 2 front bolts directly above the frame crossmember?
 

mgonitzke

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did u remove the front axle to get access to the 2 front bolts directly above the frame crossmember?
That'd be the hard way to do it. Jack up the front of the tractor and take off the wheel on the opposite side of that you are removing the bolt so the axle pivots out of the way, then use either an offset box end wrench or a breaker bar and socket (one of those two clears everything, can't remember which), then put that wheel on, take the other off, and do the other side.

Wouldn't even make the top ten most difficult access bolts I've dealt with in my life.
 

dschwandt

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Yeah, I'll pull the front axle if it needs attention.
Like needing the squeeze or shimming to get rid of any fore and aft play that might be present or if it needs a new pin and or bushings, but not if it doesn't.
Also if that area needs a good housecleaning.
 

snicklas

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I agree with do the cradle mod and move on. Out 1st Quietline was my Twin-stick 1450. After I bought it, I noticed the muffler box was touching the left side panel. I loaded it up, took it to Dads and we tore it down. The PO hadn't taken care of it properly, it had the "normal trilogy" happen. The some of the pan bolts went loose, then missing, which got to working on the rails/rubbers, that finally "machined" some of the oil pan off.

Just to be safe (remember this was our 1st Quietline) I found a good set of used rails. Started some research on here and found the cradle mod. I also purchased a cast iron pan, new ISO Rubbers from Charlie and a few other goodies. This tractor was down for a while because of other things in life at that time. So it was several months, from start to finish, but I had another tractor to use. We replaced the pan, did the cradle mod, put on new ISO Rubbers, a rear lift, pinched the front axle channel and replaced the pin with a bolt, put 1 inch spindles off a parts 782. It's been one of my primary tractors since, and I haven't had to do anything with the ISO Mounts. I do however, on a regular basis, check and make sure the pan bolts and ISO Bolts are still there and tight. I've never had to tighten them, as they have stayed put.

We now have 5 Quietlines, and with what we learned on my 1450, the first thing that happened when we got them home. We pull the engine, order new ISO Rubbers, drop a modified cradle in(remember the extra set of rails, we keep a modified cradle on hand most of the time), pinch the channel and put in a bolt. If takes a few hours, and then we don't have to worry about them again. We make a habit of checking the engine mounting bolts on all our Cubs, including the solid mounted ones, just in case (I've seen ones on those loose also).

For accessing the pan bolts, I use a GearRatchet. It's one of those the fastener will pass all the way through and they are shorter than a normal socket and ratchet.

As for the decision to use the rails and ISO Rubbers, was to address the removal of the balance gears. The balance gears did their job well, as long as they stayed inside the block. Remove the balance gears, and the 14's and 16's vibrate horribly. So to counteract this vibration, they had to do something, so they went with the Rails and ISO Mounts (not the same execution, but same idea Harley-Davidson used). The weak link in the design was the 2 independent rails (which they addressed in later series, as mentioned above). Make the cradle a unit with the mod and it works great. In my opinion, solid mounting a 14 or 16 single with no vibration mitigation is not an option. They need the balance gears, or rubber mounted, or a solution like Dave Kirk has with the crank weight modification. We have a 149 (My favorite tractor of all the ones we own) that on the last rebuild, we removed the balance gears, due to the wear in al the components, and the recommendation of many on here. With the vibration introduced into the frame and running boards, after less that 30 minutes of running the tractor, Dad or My legs start to go numb. We used to run this tractor for hours on end.... now we only use it when needed. Now we used one of the Quietlines, or the 782 (twins don't vibrate like the singles do) for all our work. I still like running the 149, but I won't run it all day if I don't have to......

Here is the ratchet type I'm talking about:

gearwrench-ratchet-socket-sets-8921-64_1000.jpg
 

rfcampbell

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That'd be the hard way to do it. Jack up the front of the tractor and take off the wheel on the opposite side of that you are removing the bolt so the axle pivots out of the way, then use either an offset box end wrench or a breaker bar and socket (one of those two clears everything, can't remember which), then put that wheel on, take the other off, and do the other side.

Wouldn't even make the top ten most difficult access bolts I've dealt with in my life.
ok u are describing a 1450 that has 2 front holes through the frame crossmember so u can get access to those 2 bolts? ok, then how do u put the bolts back in if u cant get to them if the rails are bolted on the frame? A 149 they had 2 3/8 bolt holes in the cross member that bolted the engine to the frame so a box end wrench or a ratcheting wrench can work The 1450 cubs have 2 larger holes in the cross member so u need to use a socket The tools u show I don't have never seen before but I see they would work as a socket and ratcheting wrench all in one Lets say if u didn't have these types of a tool then what would u use? Yes, a 149 u can keep the axle in and pivot it this is how I do this
 

snicklas

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Every Quietline I have worked on has larger holes in the axle channel the front bolts go through. The rear one I either reach up from underneath, or each through from the top side by the blower housing. Not much more difficult than a 149. For as few times as an engine needs to be pulled, I don't think it all that bad. There are other bolts/pins that are much more difficult to get to.
 

rfcampbell

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ok u are describing a 1450 that has 2 front holes through the frame crossmember so u can get access to those 2 bolts? ok, then how do u put the bolts back in if u cant get to them if the rails are bolted on the frame? A 149 they had 2 3/8 bolt holes in the cross member that bolted the engine to the frame so a box end wrench or a ratcheting wrench can work The 1450 cubs have 2 larger holes in the cross member so u need to use a socket The tools u show I don't have never seen before but I see they would work as a socket and ratcheting wrench all in one Lets say if u didn't have these types of a tool then what would u use? Yes, a 149 u can keep the axle in and pivot it this is how I do this
Forgot to mention, most quietline engines didn't use balance gears being they had the rubber mount system As for so much vibration on a solid engine to frame mount your arms hands legs get numb I would say that some 149 cubs vibrated more or less they vary from cub to cub Now, I have many 149 cubs the frame to engine direct mount type that had and some never used balance gears I had a 1450 engine that had the rail system took the 14hp out and put in a 149 solid mount of course I had to change the flywheel and bearing plate for the gen/starter system but it don't vibrate at all it never had any balance gears I cant explain why it is one that don't vibrate
 
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