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Archive through September 18, 2014

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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jpatchett

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2004
Messages
350
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Jim Patchett
I will vote with Steve, skip the oil cooler. The amount of heat exchange from the oil cooler will be a small fraction when compared to the heat removed by the fins and block. Keep the fins clear of debris and always run at WOT. The OC and lines/fittings to it will just another place for leaks.

Jim
 
Good morning, All.
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I'm going to be working this whole weekend so not much Cub Cadet time. Last weekend however I was fortunate and had a spare field cil for the Keepsake 1650's electric pto clutch. Pat Zeroth showed me how to read a volt/ohm meter and the original field coil read 1.0 versus the spare at 4.94. My question is.... Does anyone know of a good place that could rebuild these field coils? Right now I'm in the midst of saving $630.00 for a replacement bridge for a tooth that had to be removed last month so funds are really tight. TIA for any help and everyone BE SAFE and have a wonderful day.
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p.s. I tried gigaloing myself to some 75-89+ year old women and they laughed so hard their dentures fell out.
 
Jason it is possible to put a snow blower on a O. I have one but can not find a plate to I D the model. It is IH Danco and 30 inches wide. I need to let someone have it to restore.
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Jim P.,
I'm all for WOT, but what should the RPM's be for our Cub Cadets at WOT?
You know as well as I do the PO can tinker with things and get the throttle linkage screwed up.
Is there any place that lists what all the different engines RPM's should be at WOT?
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Good morning! Well, I'm just about prepared to go and drop off my Kohler K341A at my local Fastenal! The motor is out of a IH CC model 169. I'm now happy to announce that as far as I know, with my motor another model 169 is going to roll once more at some point in the future!

I'm looking forward to a week's worth of 12 hour days. Here, I will have the extra funds needed to purchase something for my 1450. Going to purchase bran new Firestone 23 x 10.5 x 12" flotation 23 rear ag tires from Miller Tire! There is a fair amount of work lined up on my Quiet Line 1450 which will foresee a longer down time period, and to ensure a slow, enjoyable, and correct assembly/ procedures.

There is a little time, but not much, to paint the front of my IH 42" push blade that lives on my model 72! "New" Farmall wheel weights for the 12" rear rims are on their way for this 72. The IH light switch has since been installed, and is a wonderful upgrade. I also need to light and wire in my Cobalt voltage meter, switch the 10.5's on it now back to the 8.5's and chain and weight those wheels. As mentioned before, I would like to contact Charlie about some 1/4" wheel spacers so we don't chew up inside fender wells, lol!Should be fun, and will be nice to have such a fine garden tractor on snow clearing duty this up coming season!

Have a good IH Cub Cadet day!

John
 
Shultzie,

What I have read in the manuals, and seen posted on here, and even a quote from Dave Kirk is 3600 RPM No Load. Don't go over 3600, but get as close to it as you can. Right at 3600 is where my 1450 runs, but I have my 1650 at about 3450...... that is about as fast as I want all that mass moving...... at least in my opinion....
 
SHULTZIE - Did you check in the manuals section here on this forum for each model's full load engine RPM in the OPERATORS manual?

Then you'll need some kind of tach to check the engine speed with.

I think I've taken the OTHER side of Jim P's statement here more than any one else. I seldom ever run ANY of my CC's at wide open throttle and have NEVER over-heated an engine except for ONE time, when I was REALLY over-loading it.

I don't mow when it's really hot out. Too hard on ME let alone the Cub Cadet. I normally try to mow when the temps are 80 or less. If I have to mow when it's over 80 to say 85, I'll run the engine faster because the cooling air is hotter. If it's over 85 I stay in the house and enjoy the air conditioning. But unless you're using FULL available horse power which really reduces engine life, there's no need for wide open running for cooling. The diecast conn rods in these engines have a finite life, then they break. And they break sooner when greater force is exerted on them. And running the engine at 3600 RPM puts over FOUR times as much stress on them as running them at 1800 RPM. So seems to me just running these engines at 3600 RPM because your afraid of over-heating them is just wasting gas and operating time before conn rod failure.

I run the engine fast enough that the mower does a decent job of mowing, and if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say I mow around 2400 RPM. If the grass is taller I may mow as fast as 3000.

Some day I'll get one of my CC's instrumented with a tach, oil temp, cyl head temp, & exh gas temp. and put these old wives tales to rest.
 
Scott N.
Hummmmm, so is that a basic rule for the 7hp. Kohlers all the way to the Onan 19.9hp.?
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Jason, the only tillers made for use on an Original were ones that were self powered. Such as the Planet Jr. brand.

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Shultzie: I think it applies to motors from Kohler. I know that B&S motors have varying WOT specified per their engine Model#, Type#, and Code# which in turn were developed per the engine's application which included pumps and generators, etc. People who soup these Kohlers up claim that they don't run them less than 4000 RPM, but I don't share their confidence.

I had one mower equipped with a Kohler, from Sears, that had the instructions to mow at WOT stamped on the instrument panel, and I think the operator's manual specifies using WOT for mowing (Denny
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Regarding the great oil debate, I've had good luck with the 30W "Low Ash Oil" and I would be interested in how more knowledgeable people compare it to the 10W-30 synthetic recommended above. I understand (from Nick B.) that the molecular structure of synthetic oil is more uniform than the lubricant descended from the age of the dinosaurs and that it therefore lubricates better and especially holds up better. My question has more to do with it's overall formulation. If the "Low Ash" oil is formulated for air-cooled engines with flat tappets; and the 10W-30 must serve in automotive engines with roller tappets and does not require zinc in its formulation, does it still offer advantages over "Low Ash" formula or other formulations for air-cooled, flat-tappet engines?
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Oil Coolers: can be problematical for all the reasons mentioned already. The best compromise I've seen is to use a thermostatically controlled valve to bring the oil cooler on line when needed. Again, I think one needs to establish the need for the cooler oil first; if the oil is getting to hot and hence too thin to lubricate, then the cooler helps; but if the oil is cooled too well and becomes thicker than desirable, then it actually contributes to engine wear instead of inhibiting it.

Edit: That's a cool attachment, Kraig.
 
Jeremiah, I agree with you on engine oil. I have had wonderful luck with S.A.E. 30 low ash oil for my 1250, plus a lot of bigger, older stuff. If I recall correctly, Kohler has not changed its specs on oil for the K series engines, and still recommends S.A.E. 30 weight oil in summer, and a multi-grade of some sort in the winter.

It seems to me that 3200 RPM is pretty tight for any one-lung engine. Although it is hard to tell with a vibra-tach; that is about all my K-301 does. I am happy not to run it that fast. I don't see the hurry.
 
JEREMIAH - The reason why OEM's say to run wide open is because it's safe. If you as an operator have NO idea if your engine is running at next to NO load or FULL load, the engine is getting maximum cooling air even though it may be being WAY Over-cooled. Plus if a conn rod breaks the customer will be coming back for either expensive repair work or a new engine/tractor, also expensive.

The 19.9 HP Onan in my 982 is supposed to run 3200 full load RPM, 3400 no load. Seems to me the Quiet-Line tractors & 16 HP tractors ran slower than the earlier CC's too.

And yes, the Kohler manuals still recommend straight 30W oil, but say nothing about low ash, that's IH that says that. The Kohler manual recommend AGAINST using 10W-30 or 10W-40 oil. But I broke a K241 in on 10W-40, over-heated it once.... then proceeded to run it till it had 1400 hours on it when I replaced it with a K321. The last 800-1000 hours I was using Rotella 15W-40 in it. And of those 1400 hours, I'd be surprised if TEN of them were at wide open throttle. The piston, rings, rod, all looked good when I disassembled the engine.
 
WOT

I don’t' exceed 3600 rpm on a K series. My statement always WOT should be clarified by when doing work, plowing, snow blowing, pushing dirt, etc. WOT will provide the most cooling for the engine while doing work. I do run WOT while mowing because I want the blades spinning as fast as possible and the rotary mowers manual states to do so. I don't plan on changing mower pulleys to change the mower RPM. I normally mow in the evening, better for me, the engine and the grass. Yes I also run lower rpm's (1800 or so) when driving around, using a self-powered tiller, pulling a wagon, etc. Kohler engines are designed to run at the specified maximum RPM and will drop to the power band under load. Hard to drop to the power band (3200 rpm) when you are below it in the first place, but it is a free country do as you like.

Jim
 
Dennis F.
That's interesting about the 3400 rpm's.
I just looked up in the manual section and the manual says the h.p. is 19.9 @ 3600 rpm.
They must really rev it up so they can get the 19.9 h.p.
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I just ordered a RPM meter so I an check my Cubs. I think I'll play it safe and set mine at the 3400 rpm.
Thanks!
 
I mow at WOT because I want/need full deck performance.

All of my CI Kohlers and KT/Mag twins are set to run at no less than 3600 RPM WOT no-load.......but NEVER over 3650. I want them right on top, but not over.

CI flywheels get very suspect over 4000 RPM, and I don't want to ever see one come unglued, let alone while my "most treasured parts" are riding right next to it on the seat!!!

I agree on the 30 WT low-ash, but also believe that the manuals have not been updated for modern synthetic oils either. I recently switched to 10W-30 Mobile One based on Dave K's recommendations and experience with air cooled engines in the lab. I still change at 25-30 hours, but trust his recommendations and experience in the small engine engineering industry RE: 10W-30 synthetic, especially given our engine manuals are getting a little long in the tooth.

Need to get out of here and go take the 18hp Kaw powered 54" Cub Cadet ZTR for a ride in the church cemetery before the dew sets in and makes it a wet mess!
 
STEVE B. - I thought I saw a Kohler manual that recommended 10W-30 but I went to their website and checked this AM.... they're still showing 30 weight above 32 degrees F.

Yep, long in the tooth is right... Just like all these Noobs asking on YT if they REALLY should use non-detergent oil in their M's H's. Not really... most farmer's switched to detergent oil in the 50's & 60's.

SHULTZIE - My Service manual for my 982 says 3200 FL/3400NL. Gets kinda confusing because IH made a skid steer loader with the B48G Onan and it's in the same service manual.

If you guys all need to run your mowers so fast to mow nice, you probably need to sharpen the blades more often.
 
I guess I will jump in on this one also..

For us, Dad and I, the rule has ALWAYS been if the tractor is "working" (Mowing, Tilling, Plowing snow or dirt, Snowthrowing, etc) it is to be at WOT. This has been the rule since before I was old enough to even drive the tractors. Dad got his first Cub Cadet in the early 70's, a 105 when he and Mom decided they wanted a garden. Before that, and I barely remember it I was so young but Dad had a gold-colored Sears (not a Suburban) lawn mower, but it left shortly after the Cub arrived. It was always used at WOT, and was traded on the #1 149 he still has in 1978 when he figured out a #1 tiller with both extensions was a bit much for the 105 and it was heavy even with the helper spring, so he wanted a hydraulic lift, plus he tilled more than just our garden, so it got a workout. We still have this tractor, and it is on its second engine. The first one lost a piston skirt during the winter in the early 80's (something that seems to happen on the 14's) which did not affect the rings, so it still ran, it just had a slight knock. Dad changed the oil and found a marbling on the oil, and piston skirt pieces in the bottom of the drain pan. This engine was over the max bore limit, and Dad was able to get a crate Kohler 14 and drop in, all he had to do was move over the PTO and the S/G. Otherwise it was complete, and why an early wideframe has a black engine, the original was yellow. This enngine ran for nearly 1000 hours before it lost a piston skirt (sound familiar). I was just starting to mow when it happened and I heard the sound change (this was in the mid 90's I was in college) and shut it off immediately, and hollered for Dad. He had me start it, and immediately shut it off because he heard it too, so it only ran for maybe 5 seconds with a bad piston. (Learned the lesson from the last one) We replaced the rod, piston and rings and put it back in service. This rod/piston combo ran for over 1400 hours before it was to the point of check the gas, fill the oil.... almost a mosquito fogger. It also had balance gears in it all that time, it doesn't now, took them out before they came out on their own, but... This rod and piston are what is currently in the engine, and still being used. We have had a total of 3 rod failures in our Cubs. We are now up to 11 between the 2 of us, a few are parts tractors, most run and get used. These failures we in: 1. IH Built 782 with the KT17. Lost a rod mowing a ditch (didn't know better at the time, we do now) it is still in service, however it now has an M18 crate engine. 2. A 149 (not the one above) that we had just purchased. It ran for a short time and just stopped. Pulled it apart and had a broken rod. No history on this tractor, but did find some questionable things with the engine on tear down. Now has a new/used 14 in it. 3. Dad's 1650. Yes the restored one he bought. It again, a fresh purchase, and had just been "rebuilt" before he bought it. Rod let go, not sure if the wrong rod was used, because the 16 HP rods and the 12/14 HP rods are different. Some of the "kits" out there on "you know where" are a lower cost because they put a 12 HP rod in the kit for a 16...... or if the rod was installed backwards. couldn't tell as the crank journal came apart and even galled the crank, so who knows, again unknown history. That one has been put back together, but he has been busy so it is not 100% complete yet. He actually has a different engine in it, found a 16 for a song, and did not want to change the crank at this time in the original engine, but he still has it, and it will be placed on the shelf as a spare, since we all know you can't get these anymore. What there is "in the wild" is all there are. I run my 1450 and 1650, for the last few years, and this year respectively as I just got the 1650 this spring, as we have done with Dad's for decades. Not sure which is right.... but that is my personal experience with several single cylinder and 1 twin cylinder Kohlers.

(Sorry for the long post)
 
I read the book 'Motor Oil Bible". If you are looking for good info on motor oil this is a very good book, long but good. The book is 170 - 200+ pages depending on the version. There are PDF files out on the net.

Jim
 
Hey. Back on the one hole Brinly.
I peeled back my original decal and it is definatly a clear background. I should have new decals next week. I'll post pics later.
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Denny,

When the grass gets dew covered at 6:00 pm, you can't afford to mow slow.......I hate to mow wet grass, and really prefer to move right along while mowing......blades are always sharp, just want them to cut clean while moving along as the a good clip.
 

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