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Archive through January 02, 2013
- Thread starter jbaker
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Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
Hi I'm new here I've got a 122 would like to get more reliable horsepower out of it any suggestions or info. would really be appreciated I'm gonna use the tractor for pulling and.also plowing but mainly pulling so.any suggestions would be great thanks
nbextermueller
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- Nic Bextermueller
Big news for our pulling club this year. Lucas Oil Products coming board! And we've had reports of more than a dozen new tractors coming over to play.
Check it out! www.pantherpulling.com
Now I really need to get to work on that puller I started 4 years ago.
Check it out! www.pantherpulling.com
Now I really need to get to work on that puller I started 4 years ago.
Pulling Cub Cadets with Fluid in the rear tires. Does it help or does it hurt?
Pulling with wheel weights does it help? or not?
I was asked this last night and I don't know the answer. I know when I pulled we always used hanging weights.
Pulling with wheel weights does it help? or not?
I was asked this last night and I don't know the answer. I know when I pulled we always used hanging weights.
jdiederichs
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- Jim Diederichs
The extra mass of the weights or fluid will break axles easier, as a "body in motion..." wheras fixed frame weights don't.
nbextermueller
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Agreed, and besides breaking axels, it takes ALOT of power to keep filled or weighted wheels turning. That's power that is not making it to the ground.
Think if drag race cars had big heavy weights or filled tires. It's ALWAYS better to reduce unsprung weight. Same concepts apply in pulling.
Think if drag race cars had big heavy weights or filled tires. It's ALWAYS better to reduce unsprung weight. Same concepts apply in pulling.
I understand the weight in motion for higher speeds. Do you think this a factor in on 2nd gear on a Cub?
I have an engineer friend telling me he's going to try fluid in the tires. I said hmmm, NO ONE does that. If you've talked to an engineer you really need some good concrete answers or reasoning as to why it won't work. Saying no one does that did not work for me.......lol Then I mentioned I think it has something to do with the moving fluid in the tire, but I had no good answer...
I have an engineer friend telling me he's going to try fluid in the tires. I said hmmm, NO ONE does that. If you've talked to an engineer you really need some good concrete answers or reasoning as to why it won't work. Saying no one does that did not work for me.......lol Then I mentioned I think it has something to do with the moving fluid in the tire, but I had no good answer...
This could be an interesting topic to discuss!
Weight on the chassis of a tractor bears down on the axle carriers, axle bearings, and axles of the tractor, and in the case of a pulling tractor, almost all the weight, OR all the weight is on the rear axle with the driving wheels anyhow. Putting the weight IN the tires or on the wheels reduces the weight bearing down on the axle carriers, axle bearings, and axles by that amount. Just the torsion and forward pull of the tire to the axle carriers, and the reduced weight of the tractor chassis would be on the axles.
Years ago when the typical tractor pull had 5000#, 7000#, 9000# & 12,000# classes, it was normal for a tractor to run at least 2-3-4 classes. Between classes they'd throw on 6-8-10 rear wheel weights per wheel and some suitcase weights either ahead of the rear axle or on the frt of the tractor. Many different methods of installing the wheel weights were used. Typical JD method was using a large steel pipe the size of the round cast center hole in the JD rear wheel weights. When the tractor started moving the weights would turn, but once the tractor stopped, the inertia of those weights would keep the weights turning after the wheels stopped. IH tractors either used two channel iron bars inside the diamond shaped center hole or two pipes along the rims to slide the hand holds of the weights over the pipes. They didn't spin after the tractor stopped.
IMO, the spinning wheel weights would be just a large flywheel, once they got spinning they'd help keep the wheels spinning.
Far as fluid, many here have put WWF, used anti-freeze, even CaCl and beet juice(Rim Guard) in tires. My one FARMALL, the Super H had CaCl in the rear tires since before Dad bought it back in 1968. I put thousands of miles on that tractor running on the road. Fluid filled tires HAVE to have SOME air space in them, 90% fluid fill is as high as any tire mfg recommends, over that and you risk catastrophic tire casing failure, rippng the tire apart from internal pressure due to compressing the tire while driving over things. The internal volume would change as the tire distorts and as internal volume decreased the pressure skyrockets.
While running down the road, the fluid stays relatively stationary, a certain small amount does cling to the inside of the inner tube and goes over the top, but 99+% stays at the bottom of the tire. Fluid does cause weird tread wear on hard surface roads, but I can't say it "pulls" any harder than an equivalent amount of wheel weights or chassis weights. With wheel weights or chassis weights, the increased tire deflection unless air PSI was increased would probably make the tires without fluid pull harder. Quick way to check that would be to jack up both rear drive wheels and see how hard it is to accelerate them to a certain speed, or maybe getting them to speed them stopping would be better. Both with empty tires and fluid filled tires. Since fluid has very little internal "friction", I doubt there is much difference between fluid filled & empty tires. Fluid would have mass, or weight, and would tend to keep a tractor rolling after power was removed from the drive wheels by pushing in the direction it was moving from inside the tires. Since this test would be done on a stationary tractor that wouldn't have any effect.
There may be a difference in the way fluid presses down INSIDE the tire, concentrating weight on the tire contact patch. A tire over-inflated with air tends to only contact the ground in the center, a tire filled with not enough air PSI tends to have two contact patches on the sides of the tire and buckles in the center. The internal pressing down on the contact patch with the fluid filled tire was what was wearing out the old 45 deg lug tires that were on the Super H when we first got it. The 23 deg lug tires wore much more evenly. The 45 deg tires wore the very center of the tire down on the forward sides of the lugs, and the back sides of the outside ends of the lugs.
While I agree that lighter weight wheels & tires are quicker to get up to speed and stop, and less un-sprung weight helps with keeping tires in contact with the ground for improved handling, I'm not 100% sure that means much when pulling a CC down a realitively smooth 300 ft pulling track.
But if you guys that pull break axle parts using wheel weights & fluid, and don't with chassis weights, then all my typing up above is wrong. Might have something to do with the air filled tires absorbing the stress & shock of pulling.
Weight on the chassis of a tractor bears down on the axle carriers, axle bearings, and axles of the tractor, and in the case of a pulling tractor, almost all the weight, OR all the weight is on the rear axle with the driving wheels anyhow. Putting the weight IN the tires or on the wheels reduces the weight bearing down on the axle carriers, axle bearings, and axles by that amount. Just the torsion and forward pull of the tire to the axle carriers, and the reduced weight of the tractor chassis would be on the axles.
Years ago when the typical tractor pull had 5000#, 7000#, 9000# & 12,000# classes, it was normal for a tractor to run at least 2-3-4 classes. Between classes they'd throw on 6-8-10 rear wheel weights per wheel and some suitcase weights either ahead of the rear axle or on the frt of the tractor. Many different methods of installing the wheel weights were used. Typical JD method was using a large steel pipe the size of the round cast center hole in the JD rear wheel weights. When the tractor started moving the weights would turn, but once the tractor stopped, the inertia of those weights would keep the weights turning after the wheels stopped. IH tractors either used two channel iron bars inside the diamond shaped center hole or two pipes along the rims to slide the hand holds of the weights over the pipes. They didn't spin after the tractor stopped.
IMO, the spinning wheel weights would be just a large flywheel, once they got spinning they'd help keep the wheels spinning.
Far as fluid, many here have put WWF, used anti-freeze, even CaCl and beet juice(Rim Guard) in tires. My one FARMALL, the Super H had CaCl in the rear tires since before Dad bought it back in 1968. I put thousands of miles on that tractor running on the road. Fluid filled tires HAVE to have SOME air space in them, 90% fluid fill is as high as any tire mfg recommends, over that and you risk catastrophic tire casing failure, rippng the tire apart from internal pressure due to compressing the tire while driving over things. The internal volume would change as the tire distorts and as internal volume decreased the pressure skyrockets.
While running down the road, the fluid stays relatively stationary, a certain small amount does cling to the inside of the inner tube and goes over the top, but 99+% stays at the bottom of the tire. Fluid does cause weird tread wear on hard surface roads, but I can't say it "pulls" any harder than an equivalent amount of wheel weights or chassis weights. With wheel weights or chassis weights, the increased tire deflection unless air PSI was increased would probably make the tires without fluid pull harder. Quick way to check that would be to jack up both rear drive wheels and see how hard it is to accelerate them to a certain speed, or maybe getting them to speed them stopping would be better. Both with empty tires and fluid filled tires. Since fluid has very little internal "friction", I doubt there is much difference between fluid filled & empty tires. Fluid would have mass, or weight, and would tend to keep a tractor rolling after power was removed from the drive wheels by pushing in the direction it was moving from inside the tires. Since this test would be done on a stationary tractor that wouldn't have any effect.
There may be a difference in the way fluid presses down INSIDE the tire, concentrating weight on the tire contact patch. A tire over-inflated with air tends to only contact the ground in the center, a tire filled with not enough air PSI tends to have two contact patches on the sides of the tire and buckles in the center. The internal pressing down on the contact patch with the fluid filled tire was what was wearing out the old 45 deg lug tires that were on the Super H when we first got it. The 23 deg lug tires wore much more evenly. The 45 deg tires wore the very center of the tire down on the forward sides of the lugs, and the back sides of the outside ends of the lugs.
While I agree that lighter weight wheels & tires are quicker to get up to speed and stop, and less un-sprung weight helps with keeping tires in contact with the ground for improved handling, I'm not 100% sure that means much when pulling a CC down a realitively smooth 300 ft pulling track.
But if you guys that pull break axle parts using wheel weights & fluid, and don't with chassis weights, then all my typing up above is wrong. Might have something to do with the air filled tires absorbing the stress & shock of pulling.
jdiederichs
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Don't forget that moving weights have the advantage of relocation to accomodate different track conditions/ front to rear /to midmount etc. But hey, if an engineer said it is best please try it, I have plenty of axles to sell
Thank you for the input!
They are going to try it I guess - the engineer guys, not me. I've broken enough axles and parts while pulling. No fluid in my pulling tires. Maybe they'll win and then everyone will start putting fluid in tires...probably not. Cub Cadet pulling has been going on long before I ever heard of a Cub Cadet, if fluid was the thing then everyone would use it.
Myself when I'm at an event I watch how all others are doing, where their weight is, front back, middle, etc. and position mine accordingly.
I might just have to start competitive pulling again! well maybe not, or maybe...probably not this year!
They are going to try it I guess - the engineer guys, not me. I've broken enough axles and parts while pulling. No fluid in my pulling tires. Maybe they'll win and then everyone will start putting fluid in tires...probably not. Cub Cadet pulling has been going on long before I ever heard of a Cub Cadet, if fluid was the thing then everyone would use it.
Myself when I'm at an event I watch how all others are doing, where their weight is, front back, middle, etc. and position mine accordingly.
I might just have to start competitive pulling again! well maybe not, or maybe...probably not this year!
I hope you pullers, JIM & NIC, aren't thinking I'm advocating fluid in the drive wheels of a puller. I did a LOT of work, spent over $200 to get rid of the fluid in the last pair of tires I had fluid in last year. The 60-70-100# per wheel it adds to a garden tractor tire is NOT movable. And if anything, makes getting the correct air PSI harder to match track conditions.
Wheel weights are easier to add/remove, but are still just weight over the foot print of the tire. And without some way to add/remove them quick, the suitcase weights are just handier.
All the large ag tire MFG's have stopped recommending fluid in large field tractor tires, especially radial drive tires. And for good reason. Today's really high HP tractors tend to "power-hop" at high loads. I've never run a tractor with enough HP to hop but I've had it happen in trucks in many situations.
I'm just trying to find out why weight on a tractor chassis is easier on the drive train than weight on the wheels.
Wheel weights are easier to add/remove, but are still just weight over the foot print of the tire. And without some way to add/remove them quick, the suitcase weights are just handier.
All the large ag tire MFG's have stopped recommending fluid in large field tractor tires, especially radial drive tires. And for good reason. Today's really high HP tractors tend to "power-hop" at high loads. I've never run a tractor with enough HP to hop but I've had it happen in trucks in many situations.
I'm just trying to find out why weight on a tractor chassis is easier on the drive train than weight on the wheels.
nbextermueller
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- Nic Bextermueller
Vincent,
For those engineers (which I am as close as it gets to an engineer without the official piece of paper, I have a degree in mechanical design.) tell them to look into "Kenetic energy of a rotating wheel" and "angular momentum". But NOT how much energy it has but how much it takes to keep a fly wheel spinning.
For those without a physics major, those big heavy wheels don't operate as a flywheel. A fly wheel is usually used to spin a much smaller pulley into a gear/pulley multiplication setup, Similar to the old steam engine set-ups. The exception being something like your air compressor. But even those take a very large electric motor to keep spinning. Also, the wheels are never really spinning fast enough for a fly wheel affect. That's why guys put a 25lb flywheel in the engine. They energy is multiplied through the drivetrain, not at the end of it.
Secondly, as for breaking axels, it's not about less weight on the bearings and such. Think about that axel on your work bench and the wheel hanging over the edge at the bearing. Now imagine accelerating and decelerating that wheel alot, along with hitting bumps and turning. That wheel and more importantly the shear point just outside that bearing is seeing alot of action. Having a 30lb wheel and tire out there at the end of that stick is much less likely to twist or bend that axel than having the enertia and energy of 150lbs out there. That's what breaks axels.
And besides power loss, pulling is ALL about balance. Especially with these garden tractors when shifting your butt cheek 1" will make or break you. Weight transfer absolutely applies to this sport.
Say your shooting for the a-typical 1050lb class.
Let's assume the weight of the tractor without the driver or filled tires weights 650lb. Add a 200lb driver and your at 850 leaving 200 lbs to be placed around the tractor to get the front tires to just hover above the dirt during a pull, so when you lean forward you can set them down to steer and lean back to put all the weight on the tires without hitting the wheelie bars and unloading the tires.
If suddenly you put 75lb in each tire, you only have 50lbs to play with. And that 150lbs you added has ZERO weight transfer because you literally put it in the fulcrum (the tires). So while the tractor does weight more, you've lost balance, control and while losing power (mentioned above) doing it.
So let them fill their tires. Everyone learns the hard way. And if your pulling against them, you can snicker every time they just stand on the wheelie bars and then sputter out faster than everyone else. It's funny to watch great minds get stumped by the obvious...
Because you know what, your right. If it worked better to have filled tires, everyone would be doing it. But they're not and there IS a logical reason for it.
For those engineers (which I am as close as it gets to an engineer without the official piece of paper, I have a degree in mechanical design.) tell them to look into "Kenetic energy of a rotating wheel" and "angular momentum". But NOT how much energy it has but how much it takes to keep a fly wheel spinning.
For those without a physics major, those big heavy wheels don't operate as a flywheel. A fly wheel is usually used to spin a much smaller pulley into a gear/pulley multiplication setup, Similar to the old steam engine set-ups. The exception being something like your air compressor. But even those take a very large electric motor to keep spinning. Also, the wheels are never really spinning fast enough for a fly wheel affect. That's why guys put a 25lb flywheel in the engine. They energy is multiplied through the drivetrain, not at the end of it.
Secondly, as for breaking axels, it's not about less weight on the bearings and such. Think about that axel on your work bench and the wheel hanging over the edge at the bearing. Now imagine accelerating and decelerating that wheel alot, along with hitting bumps and turning. That wheel and more importantly the shear point just outside that bearing is seeing alot of action. Having a 30lb wheel and tire out there at the end of that stick is much less likely to twist or bend that axel than having the enertia and energy of 150lbs out there. That's what breaks axels.
And besides power loss, pulling is ALL about balance. Especially with these garden tractors when shifting your butt cheek 1" will make or break you. Weight transfer absolutely applies to this sport.
Say your shooting for the a-typical 1050lb class.
Let's assume the weight of the tractor without the driver or filled tires weights 650lb. Add a 200lb driver and your at 850 leaving 200 lbs to be placed around the tractor to get the front tires to just hover above the dirt during a pull, so when you lean forward you can set them down to steer and lean back to put all the weight on the tires without hitting the wheelie bars and unloading the tires.
If suddenly you put 75lb in each tire, you only have 50lbs to play with. And that 150lbs you added has ZERO weight transfer because you literally put it in the fulcrum (the tires). So while the tractor does weight more, you've lost balance, control and while losing power (mentioned above) doing it.
So let them fill their tires. Everyone learns the hard way. And if your pulling against them, you can snicker every time they just stand on the wheelie bars and then sputter out faster than everyone else. It's funny to watch great minds get stumped by the obvious...
Because you know what, your right. If it worked better to have filled tires, everyone would be doing it. But they're not and there IS a logical reason for it.
nbextermueller
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I just thought of a fun test for your engineer buddies.
Have a race! A straight line, say 300' like a pulling track. Then after they have filled one of the tires, have them roll/push them down the track. First one wins. Then ask them which tire was easier to start moving and keep moving. And which one took less effort (power) to do so.
Then put it on YouTube.
Have a race! A straight line, say 300' like a pulling track. Then after they have filled one of the tires, have them roll/push them down the track. First one wins. Then ask them which tire was easier to start moving and keep moving. And which one took less effort (power) to do so.
Then put it on YouTube.
Nic Bextermueller
I don`t read what is posted here very much and I see now I should ! I added 4 four liter containers of -45 washer fluid to my rear tires on the toro 4880 zero turn to help mowing a side hill for a friend. The washer fluid did help as long as I`am going up hill or across the hill I can now mow his lawn easily. I do know it does not mow as fast now and works hard on the steep climbs.The fluid added 80 lbs to the mower. Now the question ; would it be easier on the mower if I removed the fluid and added a solid weight . With a solid weight I think it would roll easier.I would like to know what you think. I could not mow the side hills with out the weight because it would just slide down the hill if I attempted to go across the hill.mowing down hill I have no control at all. Thanks Don T
I don`t read what is posted here very much and I see now I should ! I added 4 four liter containers of -45 washer fluid to my rear tires on the toro 4880 zero turn to help mowing a side hill for a friend. The washer fluid did help as long as I`am going up hill or across the hill I can now mow his lawn easily. I do know it does not mow as fast now and works hard on the steep climbs.The fluid added 80 lbs to the mower. Now the question ; would it be easier on the mower if I removed the fluid and added a solid weight . With a solid weight I think it would roll easier.I would like to know what you think. I could not mow the side hills with out the weight because it would just slide down the hill if I attempted to go across the hill.mowing down hill I have no control at all. Thanks Don T
kide
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Don:
I think we talked a little about this (outside of the pulling forum) before... A ZTR has most of it's weight concentrated on the rear tires with the front bogeys pretty much just along for the ride.. The sideways sliding is because gravity is overcoming traction when you are running laterally on a side slope, whereas a normal front steering GT has much more weight on the front end, with the result being four contact patches rather than just two to resist the side slide.. Look at the new Cub ZTRs with the locking front bogeys and steering setup - MTD's answer to the side slide. One of my summer projects is to get the 149 running so that I've got a GT setup with a mower deck to take over some of the duties the ZTR can't do as well... (Back to the regularly scheduled Pulling topics). Good example of why we should spend time reading other than the main forum topics - great discussion!!
I think we talked a little about this (outside of the pulling forum) before... A ZTR has most of it's weight concentrated on the rear tires with the front bogeys pretty much just along for the ride.. The sideways sliding is because gravity is overcoming traction when you are running laterally on a side slope, whereas a normal front steering GT has much more weight on the front end, with the result being four contact patches rather than just two to resist the side slide.. Look at the new Cub ZTRs with the locking front bogeys and steering setup - MTD's answer to the side slide. One of my summer projects is to get the 149 running so that I've got a GT setup with a mower deck to take over some of the duties the ZTR can't do as well... (Back to the regularly scheduled Pulling topics). Good example of why we should spend time reading other than the main forum topics - great discussion!!
nbextermueller
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Don T,
You are right that the fluid in the tires is making it harder to roll. It is effectively making you drive up-hill all the time. And Gerry is right about ZTR's placing the weight right over the tires and making only 2 real contact points, especially when that fronts can caster around and not "hold" the ground with the edge of a straight tire.
I was going to mention in the post below (but decided it was too off topic) that filled tires are really only good for one thing. That is when you need your center of gravity absolutely as low as possible. The best example being the big tractors pulling the brush hogs that mow the sides of major interstates. Around here in STL I see them driving laterally across slopes I couldn't walk up! Would scare the you-know-what right out of me. They use they big green 4WD tractors with rear WIDE duals and filled tires and another 1000lb plus of weight on the front bar. Without that weight being so low, they would likely tip right over. I'm talking like 30-40 degree slopes!
So yes, you'd gain more power and speed back going to solid weight, and I was going to recommend hanging more than have off the front. BUT I'd be afraid the front wheels would tend to caster even more and would likely be even harder to steer slinging 80-100lb around at every turn.
So unless you can get the weight basically right in front of your seat on the frame, you should leave it alone and continue on the hill.
You are right that the fluid in the tires is making it harder to roll. It is effectively making you drive up-hill all the time. And Gerry is right about ZTR's placing the weight right over the tires and making only 2 real contact points, especially when that fronts can caster around and not "hold" the ground with the edge of a straight tire.
I was going to mention in the post below (but decided it was too off topic) that filled tires are really only good for one thing. That is when you need your center of gravity absolutely as low as possible. The best example being the big tractors pulling the brush hogs that mow the sides of major interstates. Around here in STL I see them driving laterally across slopes I couldn't walk up! Would scare the you-know-what right out of me. They use they big green 4WD tractors with rear WIDE duals and filled tires and another 1000lb plus of weight on the front bar. Without that weight being so low, they would likely tip right over. I'm talking like 30-40 degree slopes!
So yes, you'd gain more power and speed back going to solid weight, and I was going to recommend hanging more than have off the front. BUT I'd be afraid the front wheels would tend to caster even more and would likely be even harder to steer slinging 80-100lb around at every turn.
So unless you can get the weight basically right in front of your seat on the frame, you should leave it alone and continue on the hill.
Don - what Nic is saying is eat half a dozen donuts for breakfast every day, get a super sized McDonald's or Burger King lunch, and a large greasy pizza for supper and there's a good chance you'll find some extra weight at your seat - then just lean forward and this weight will be just in front of your seat.......OR NOT.
