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Archive through February 18, 2012

IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum

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Harry-
Engine removed? CHECK
Front Grill removed? CHECK
Roll Pin removed? CHECK
Grease zerk located? CHECK... and broken off
Wheels slightly off ground? CHECK
Pin moving? NAUGHT

I'll go back out after lunch. Thanks for the check list
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Hi Harry,
I have had this tractor for about 7 years and it ran fine during most of that time. This all started when I hand a blown head gasket and decided to replace the compression relief spring at the same time. Once the engine was back in the frame is when the starting issues arose. I did nothing to the wiring or ignition switch except to take the frame without the engine to the car wash for a good cleaning.

According to the wiring diagram the run (R) terminal is supposed to supply the voltage to the coil during both the run AND start modes. Once the engine was started it ran fine, even better after I readjusted the valves to there proper gap. Based on the fact that it runs fine I would say the wiring is working well.
 
Richard, Did you remove the points cover and dry out the points after washing the engine?..f it has set awhile after washing you will need to clean the rust from the contacts with a points file..Then blow it out well with compressed air..
 
Hi Kevin, The engine was not in the tractor during the wash. I used rags and carb cleaner to clean the engine on the bench. I did have the points cover off but not for drying things out. I connected a jumper wire from the points to the coil. I did clean the points also.
 
Dan B - The first repair I wrote up on my 782 was replacing the axle bolt with a metric size so that I could take out all the slop that the previous owner had created in the cast iron axle by NOT greasing pin. I even ran an extension for the grease fitting, because, like you, I didn't even know the zerk was there until I had the axle out of the tractor, and even then, I had to LOOK for what I KNEW was there based on the diagrams in Parts Lookup. It was really well hidden, unless you know where to look.

I did a rather complete write-up in the Refurbish and Restoration section here: Unconfuliating a 782 SN 714899, scroll all the way down to the bottom.

I am happy to report that after a year of use the axle swings freely and has no slop; I can't say the same for the steering mechanism, however. There are limits to what the re-build can accomplish.

Richard W - From what you report, I am confident the switch is making the correct contacts:

(B)attery + (I)gnition + (S)tarter to Start

(B)attery + (I)gnition + (A)lternator to Run (and charge the battery)

The question, as Harry points out, is whether:

The (B) contact is actually connected to the Battery

The (S) contact is actually connected to the Starter (it sounds like it is)

The (I) contact is actually connected to the Ignition

The (A) contact is actually connected to the output of the Alternator

I have labeled the terminals generically, based on your description of the terminal designations above, the (R) terminal should be connected to the Positive side of the ignition coil.

I can't remember which tractor model you're dealing with, but on my tractor, I know that two interlocks are invoked in the chassis circuit (wiring harness) that could be keeping current off the coil, namely, the seat switch and the PTO switch. The PTO must be switched OFF in order to start the tractor; and in order for the motor to run while the PTO is ON, someone must be in the seat. The seat switch on my tractor is Normally Open. If anyone "hot-wired" this set up, or there is a component failure, it would explain why jumper worked, but not the key.

If your tractor doesn't have an electric PTO this shouldn't be an issue, but the seat switch might be, I'm not sure.

What I can tell you, based again on my experience, is that if the positive side of the coil is wired to the switch contact for the alternator (or generator), and the alternator (or generator) output is connected to the switch contact for the ignition; the tractor will perform exactly as you describe --the thing won't start, but it will run.

Been There, Done That, got the T-Shirt to prove it.
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Under Edit: Matt Gonitzky's earlier point is still well-taken: if the tractor is "running" with the key, then at least one current path to the coil is functioning and the problem is not a physical wiring issue, that is, the harness is OK --the problem is at the key, although not at the switch itself. You can buy a key switch, but they are relatively expensive, and you may very well find yourself with the same problem when you're through.

Just my two cents worth of honest opinion (and experience)
 
Richard - you're confusing me a little. I see terminals A, B, S and I in the wiring diagram I'm looking at (on line) It shows B+I+S in connection while in the start mode. Also, I assume you have the brake pedal depressed so the safety switch is closed. All in all it sure sounds like a bad switch (under edit Jeremiah is probably right).

Dan B - after lunch that hammer will feel a little lighter. Just to verify - again, make sure the grease zerk isn't there. Most people seeing one/finding one the 1st time are pretty amazed where it is. If the pin isn't moving at all then raise or lower the frame just slightly. I usually use a 2# hammer.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (when their wires get crossed their steering goes nuts)
 
Richard-

Make sure the alternator and coil wires are not reversed at the plug that connects the tractor wiring to the engine wiring. It does sound like they are reversed. The plug that was on there when it was made only goes together one way, but if that was removed or otherwise changed, it may be possible to reverse those wires.
 
Sorry for the confusion on the letters of the ignition switch contacts. My ignition switch itself has a terminal labeled as “R” which when looking at the wiring diagram it is listed as “I”.

I have not moved any electrical connections around on the tractor in the 7 years I have owned it other than removing a nonfunctional brake safety switch when I got the tractor.

Now I only have an electric PTO (safety) switch. I know that switch is in the off position as I had thought of that earlier.

Looks like I have some work ahead of me:”

Review / trace the wiring for the ignition switch
Check the PTO switch to make sure it is not sending out a signal to not allow the tractor to start

Note: the tractor is a model 1450
 
Richard-

The PTO switch safety circuit has nothing to do with the ignition circuit; it would only prevent the tractor from turning over.
 
Problem Solved

I started checking the wiring with a multimeter and found the little connector containing the wires for the voltage regulator and coil were reversed. After I found this I remembered that when taking the engine out a couple of months ago I had accidentally pulled the wires out of one side of the connector.
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After correcting them I was able to start the tractor several times with no problem.

I want to thank all who contributed to helping me resolve my starting issue

Now I can start to put the tractor back together.

Thanks again, Rich
 
Richard,

Does that mean that Matt wins the betting pool? I think he had "wires reversed at the connector". I am not sure who was the closest to "4:48 pm on Feb 19th". I have not been studying the issue closely, but I have to think that Matt wins!
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Richard, nice job on finding the problem, Half the battle electrically on any thing is to take the time and go back thru everything that effects what your working on to find the problem. Not only that but you have learned more about your Cub and everything that makes it operate!!!
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Well today was a bust, literally. I've been playing with a 123 that I picked up a couple months ago. It ran (sort of) when I bought it, but now it is extremely hard starting. New battery, cleaned all wiring contacts and it finally started yesterday. But today it wouldn't start again and it was backfiring out of the carb. Adjusted the timing, cleaned up the points and plug. Still backfiring out the carb. So I went to check the valve clearances. This is where I ran into trouble.

As I was pulling the valve cover off, my mind drifted as I went to move the governer lever out of the way and then I heard/felt it...snap. And then the god-awful sound of a piece of metal falling inside of the engine. Broke the tab on the cross shaft for the governor.
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So now I need some advice. The service manual tells how to disassemble everything but does not give a lot of insight for doing just this singular repair. Anybody out there that has had to do this repair before? I would love to hear some advice/instructions on how to tackle this one...

On the bright side, I pulled the head and decarbed it, as well as lapped the valves to give a fresh face on the seats. Also found a head gasket that needed replacing. So the top end should now be good to go if I decide to fix the governor.

Brent
 
Brent-

I am repairing the EXACT problem right now! The metal tang is broken off the governor rod. I have pulled the engine, removed the oil pan, and mounted the block up into my engine stand. I am now looking for a way to get the new governor ($14.00 part) in place without pulling the crankshaft and camshaft. IT IS possible, i'm told by my local Cadet guru.... it's looking like I'll need a zen-moment to realize the path

I can take photos of my progress if you need, danWI
 
Despite my well thought out plans and your excellent advice ringing in my head, I did not get to the front axle on my 125. New fuel pump in Jeep took precedent... damn responsibilities!
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I'll update once I get back to it, danWI
 
Dan keep us informed I have always been told that the "GOV" is the last part out and first part in, so let us know if you are sucsessful
 
Hi Dan,

I'd definitely be interested in seeing how your progress goes. Everything I've read says to remove EVERYTHING from the crankcase to access the governor. I'm holding out hope that I don't have to, so if you manage to get it done I'd love to see the photos and get any info you may have.

Thanks,
Brent
 
JEFF - The gov. GEAR & flyweights are the last thing to be removed from the engine when tearing it apart.

The machine shop that bored my K301 years ago broke my gov. rod that Dan & Brent are replacing and I seem to remember I got the new one in just by removing the big brass nut the shaft sticks thru. But I was assembling the engine from scratch anyhow and it was a lot of years ago. I think that's why that brass nut is so large. Remove nut, remove shaft, fish the new shaft/lever into place, I seem to remember the lever goes in first, pivot the lever down and insert shaft into it's bore in the block, install brass plug, throttle lever, adjust governor per the K-series manual.
 
I think Matt G (with a late late entry) wins the contest for Richard's problem (subject to change upon verification of Jeremiah's diagnosis).

Jeremiah - I don't see a post by you on Feb 12 at 10:54AM.

I'll take a partial credit for suggesting the wires were routed in the plug incorrectly (just had the wrong plug in mind).

Dan B - your priorities did get mixed up. Hope that Jeep fuel pump is mounted on the side of the block and not in the gas tank.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die (but are harder to start with crossed wires, and often need their axle pins pounded)
 
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