Archive through February 07, 2012

[dfrisk]

KRAIG - The 1000 RPM I can understand, both in the chart and in the instructions for setting idle mixture.

But the 169 & all QL's idling @ 1800 surprises me. I wonder if the side covers and the air ducting arund the engine have something to do with that requirement? IH wants the flywheel cooling fan to blow as much air out as possible.

If the instructions for setting idle mixture are correct for all those models, then I think they want the engine to idle @ 1000 RPM, but the operator to run @ 1800 minimum on the 169 & QL's when using the tractor. Makes more sense that way.

I'm like Wayne, I seldom run any of my CC's over 2600-3000 RPM. And for things like towing my carts where there's little if any load I shift up and throttle down, save gas, less noise.

 

[sblunier]

Wind them up, then pull the snot out of them......set high end (no load) at 3700 or so, never over 3800....and when using PTO equipment make sure you are using enough RPM to get the implement to perform correctly...WOT for mowers and throwers without exception in my book....

 

[sblunier]

 

[kmcconaughey]

The Killer Kohler in my #2 125 is set to run at around 3800 RPM and I usually run it wide open.

David Kirk, who built the engine for me, said I should set the gov to 3900 RPM but I thought I'd be a bit conservative. When I drive my Original, K4K, around the yard, I usually run half throttle, if I'm plowing with it, it's full throttle. I have no idea where the gov is set on it, but it doesn't sound like it's too high. If anything it might be a bit on the low side.

Denny, Steve, thanks. I never thought about it being a skid steer.

 

[proessler]

Steve, Cool skid! I have never seen one that size, but that one would be just right for me. I remember delivering a new IH skid 4200 (#?) back in the early 70's.That was a challenging delivery, no parking brake on the skid & trying to unload off Rollback tilted truck flatbed.

 

[dfrisk]

KRAIG - The thing that scares me as much as anything running a Kohler that fast anymore is the flywheel. The flywheels in all my Kohlers are over 40 yrs old. I really don't want one coming apart. My feet are normally up on the foot rests right next to it.

There was a pic someone posted here years ago of a CC that had a flywheel explode. Wasn't much left of the blower housing.

STEVE B - Cute little skid steer isn't it? I bet that K341 has it's hands full running it. I'd run that engine WFO.

 

[kmcconaughey]

Denny, here's a quote from David's break in procedure, this being step 4:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

4. Start engine, warm up, and set governor high idle speed to 3900 rpm. Do not exceed 4000 rpm due to safety concerns with stock flywheel.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

<font size="-1">Kind of why I decided on 3800 rpm as the limit.</font>

 

[proessler]

Correction for last post after research & memory lag catchup, IH 3200A Skid.

.... Yes, Kraig that's the one, withOut overhead protection!... Also the machine I delivered was IH white from factory when I cautiously backed it off with the owner unhooking the winch hook beforehand...

 

[kmcconaughey]

Paul, I believe forum member Myron Bounds has a 3200A skid steer. No ROPS on Myron's, did the one you unloaded have one?

Under edit: Here's A LINK to a photo of Myron in his 3200A. Scroll down a third of the page or so to find the photo.

 

[bjamison]

While I am trashing around with getting some isolators for my fine 1650, doing a mod to the engine cradle, I'm wondering what I should do while the engine is out and on my work bench.

I'm thinking that I ought do some pre-emptive work, like a carb rebuil and maybe an engine rebuild or refresh of sort. As far as the engine goes, how deep should I go? There is a limit to my talent, time and tools as it relates to re-doing a Kohler (or any other engine), so I'm wondering if I should jump-in with both feet or farm this job out.

Thanks!!!!!
Bill

 

[hydroharry]

Kraig - all this discussion about idle speeds and smooth operation got me thinking about checking the "Operator Manual" and sure enough the xx8/xx9 Op Manual list low idle speed at 1000 rpm including the 169. The 1800 listed in the Service Manual just doesn't seem right, for various reasons including what others have indicated. Now I'm wondering what IH spec'd in the Quiet Line Operator Manual - is it different from the Service Manual. I wish someone would come up with a Service Manual for the xx8/xx9 that did "not" include the Quiet Line series. Don't know why IH combined these 2 series into one service manual.

Bill J - I'm inclined to recommend not doing anything to the engine while you have it on the bench until you are certain the tractor runs and operates correctly after the mount issue is resolved. Unless you are really familiar with these units I would be concerned you may introduce more issues that you current have. If on the other hand you are familiar and have worked over some CCs before then I'd definitely de-carbon the head and piston. While you're at this you can make sure the air duct and muffler box are in good condition, as well as the muffler itself. You might want to consider adding the muffler crutch upgrade Dave Kirk has since it will save the air duct from cracking and that duct is an expensive item. Next I'd make sure the carb doesn't have alot of play in the throttle shaft, or if it does then yes a re-build is in order. I mentioned in an earlier post about verifying the front axle mount pin is in good shape and the axle channel is tight - this is much easier checked and repaired while the engine is removed. I'd also recommend a steering box upgrade (might be called super steer from Dave Kirk) - again, much easier to perform while the engine is removed. Others on here may have some additional suggestion. All these things should be relatively inexpensive. Good luck with your efforts.

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[jharvey]

Bill J.
I know what I'd do with any quietline when the engine is out. Carefully inspect the left frame rail right behind the front axle crossmember. Every one I owned was cracked in that spot and what better time to fix it?

 

[bmwitmer]

What type of motor oil does a kohler k301 use or take? I am completely rebuilding and repainting the motor and would like to know what type of oil it takes.

 

[bjamison]

Jerry - will inspect the frame.

Harry - I've got a brother that is more dialed in to working engines than am I. He can do most anything except machining. I could see us pulling the head and de-carbing, honing the bore, lapping valves and new rings if necessary. I can do the carb rebuild, not sure about the throttle shaft - never done one. 10-4 on the steering mod and the exhaust bracket.

Do you guys have a go-to guy for engine rebuilds if it comes to that? Hope that question doesn't violate forum rules, if so, please strike it and I'll repost.

Thanks again!
Bill

 

[aschumacher]

Brandon, look here... http://cubfaq.com/questions.html
number 34 should help. Check all the other neat stuff while ur in that area.
PS: Dont paint the fins...reduces cooling ability.

 

[dfrisk]

KRAIG - I think Dave & I had the conversation about the 4000 RPM limit when I picked my engine up. I forget what I set the no-load top end on my K321, either 3600 or 3800, but I've only used it a couple times.

BILL J. - I agree with all the others, fix your isomount situation, check everything over good, look for oil leaks, leaky head gasket, if it's leaking there will be a sticky black oily goo between the head & top fin of the cylinder. Maybe a carb rebuild since I think you said the tractor sat outside for a long time. But before you get too deep into the engine get it running first. Once you get into the engine the Dollars fly away quickly.

 

[dfrisk]

BRANDON - The manual for a CC recommends IH Low Ash 30W oil. I don't use it, but My Dad did in several CC's and The Tractor Doctor in Red Power Mag. highly recommends it. Dad had a couple old CC's that burned a little oil and IH Low Ash 30W stopped them from burning oil. I heard a nasty rumor over on the RPM forum that IH/CNH may discontinue having the Low Ash oil made soon.

If I didn't have a IH Powerstroke diesel sitting in my shop next to my CC's & FARMALL's I'd be using it.

 

[mgonitzke]

I'm with Steve B.- If there's a load on the engine, it should be run at full throttle. The amount of airflow over the cooling fins is directly proportional to engine speed. I don't agree with Wayne's justification for running it at less than 3600 RPM under load to avoid throwing the connecting rod. The engine is designed to run at 3600 RPM, so this shouldn't be a factor, and I doubt it'd be any less suceptible to a broken rod since the aluminum rod has a finite lifespan anyway. There is the potential for more damage to be done due to overheating by not running it at 3600 RPM than might be avoided by running it at less than that. I've even heard of a K-series throwing a rod at idle. And as Steve alludes to, the mower decks, snowthrowers, etc. are designed to work with the engine running at full rated RPM, and they don't work well when operated below that speed. I have found even 200 RPM to make a HUGE difference in the performance of a mower deck.

 

[hydroharry]

Dennis, Wayne, Kraig, et al - I just checked the Operator Manual for the QL series and sure enough under carb adjustments it mentions 1800rpm idle speed and it's also mentioned in the spec section. (Sorry my earlier post mentioned 1500 which was incorrect). Dennis mentioned about wondering whether the side covers had something to do with setting the idle speed higher. I had some thoughts that the side covers were somehow designed as part of allowing air flow over the engine, but upon further thinking thru I don't see how they play a part other than restricing the air flow. So the question still is - why did IH spec the Kohler AQS engines and the K341A in the the 169 to idle at 1800 rpm's. Maybe it's a typo in the Service Manual for the K341A in the 169 - sure would like to see a separate Service Manual for the xx8/xx9. But why then is the idle so high on the Kohler AQS in the QL units???

Bill - with regard to honing and re-ringing I would not go that far. I would do the de-carboning and have a look at the cylinder, and probably stop at that point unless you see an issue/problem. If you tear into the bottom end it will start to get costly as Dennis mentions, and I don't think you'll really want to put money into something you're not entirely sure of yet. And besides, once you've done the engine re-install it's much much easier to remove and re-install the second time (well maybe easier isn't the right term, but you'll know what you're doing). As far as engine rebuilds, I don't think there is any particular recommended person/business. What I do know is you need to have someone familiar with Kohler K series rebuilds. I'm not a re-builder myself but I do understand and watched a few being put back together, to know there are a few oddities involved in tearing down and putting things back together that are specific to Kohler K's. Someone that hasn't done one is gonna have more difficulty and maybe won't understand things like the Auto Compression Release (ACR), mentioned in an earlier post, or the way the governor is set up, etc. Lets hope for the best when you remove the head - maybe you'll find an oversized piston and nice cylinder walls indicating someone has already rebuilt it. And when you do start to put things back together make sure the tin work that the coil mounts to, and covers the head, and around the muffler, isn't all cracked up (it will rattle like _ _ _ _). And re-mounting the coil will take a little to figure out if you remove it from the tin it's mounted on (don't think you have to). Keep in touch here so we know how and what you're doing.

Matt G - agree with you on the throttle speed, 3600 or 3800 as spec'd, and definitely run wide open under load, as Steve B mentions. And as far as throwing a rod at idle, Jim Chabot had a 1000 that was idling and threw the rod. Fortunately, and maybe partially since it was at idle, all he had to do was pull the crank and clean it up (with the muratic acid???), and install a new rod - everything else was still all in spec. Question for you tho - you mention the rod has a finite life span - how long do you rate them for??

Hydro Harry
Old Cubs Never Die

 

[mgonitzke]

Harry-

I can't really comment on that since I haven't analyzed it, although it's something I'd like to do. I would venture a guess and say they should last 2000 hours with proper care, based only on the following data points: I think Denny said once that he put like 2000 hours on the engine in his 72 between rebuilds, and it sounds like he takes care of his equipment. My 1872 has 1900 hours on it and does not appear to have ever been apart. At any rate, the rod should be replaced if the engine has been taken that far apart...this is what is recommended by Kohler. Aluminum in general is not a particularly fatigue-tolerant material.

I have had quite a few engines with broken rods, and all but one had one thing in common: they were run too low on oil. The other was in the original engine in a 1250 that came from a friend of my Dad's that threw the rod when the tractor was only a a year and a half old. That one must have had a defect. When I install a new rod I file off all of the casting flash and polish any sharp edges that shouldn't be there to eliminate some of the stress risers that can initiate a fatigue crack.

Edit: I may have seen the explanation for the idle speed on the QL tractors in one of the IH/Kohler service manual supplements. I can't verify that at the moment because that stuff did not come to Kansas with me.