I am looking at a 782D to purchase, but it has ahydro problme. When it is first run, the deck and trans operate normally. When it gets hot the trans will work when under a load, but will freewheel when not, and the deck will not move. It has had a fluid flush and replacement with a new filter. There are no visible leaks and the valves on the Hydro have been swapped with a known working unit. He wants to sell the tractor, but I need any help I can get to see how much it may take to fix before I give him, an offer. Any help would be appriciated. Sorry for the long read.
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782D HYDRO PROBLEM
- Thread starter rvoelz
- Start date
Help Support IH Cub Cadet Tractor Forum:
Hi Robert V: First, you are mixing apples & oranges. The hydrostatic pump & transaxle are totally unrelated to the deck operation. The deck is powered by an Electric PTO Clutch located at the front of the engine. For the Deck problem it will pay to check the PTO switch (likely) and the Clutch (possible, but less likely) You need to check the grounds on this tractor. UNLESS you are talking about the hydraulic deck lift--if so you didn't say it...
As for the Hydro, you said "flushed"...What does that mean? The fluid has to be replaced and Hy-Tran from Case/IH or Cub Cadet Hydraulic Transmission Fluid (Same stuff-CC just can't use the trade-marked name Hy-Tran). You mentioned nothing about removing the back plate and cleaning out the rear end, installing a new gasket, refilling with Hy-Tran and using a <u>genuine</u> Cub Cadet <u>Hydraulic</u> Filter.
Let us know how you make out....
Myron B
CCSupplyRoom
As for the Hydro, you said "flushed"...What does that mean? The fluid has to be replaced and Hy-Tran from Case/IH or Cub Cadet Hydraulic Transmission Fluid (Same stuff-CC just can't use the trade-marked name Hy-Tran). You mentioned nothing about removing the back plate and cleaning out the rear end, installing a new gasket, refilling with Hy-Tran and using a <u>genuine</u> Cub Cadet <u>Hydraulic</u> Filter.
Let us know how you make out....
Myron B
CCSupplyRoom
mhomrighausen
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Robert V. Welcome to the forum. I'm going to be asking some questions here to try and get some bearings as to try and help you. First of all... exactly what type of oil was the system filled with and what type of filter? Was everything genuine Cub Cadet products or not? This may sound dumb only I am going to state what the loss of power section says... in order of what to check.
Assuming the oil is correct and the filter is correct. Now how about the control linkage ... have you checked it?
Do you have the gauges to be able to check charge pressure? I haven't found my manual yet as to how so someone else will have to provide the hows and other stuff regarding that info.
If the charge pressure is LOW then this is what the manual wants you to check next.
Next check the inlet filter and then charge relief valves. You state these are good.
Inspect the implement relief valve and make sure that it is okay.
Inspect the charge pump and make sure it is okay. Now if the charge pressure is okay then check system pressure. If the system pressure is low then inspect charge check valves.
Okay that is what my manual says. I'm somewhat tired ( I get up at 3:00 a.m.). You may want to read the post about Matt G.'s 1811 hydro problems. It is posted just under your question. Maybe there is something in there that may help you. It could actually be the charge pump only I don't think so. The charge pump should show a weakness a lot sooner then when the system gets hot. Also, is it operating temperature or truly HOT? There is a difference.
I wonder if perhaps your implement relief spring may be sticking open. Thanks for letting me ramble... too dang pooped to think much more about hydros... been working around them for eight hours today. Let me know if this helps or hinders.
Assuming the oil is correct and the filter is correct. Now how about the control linkage ... have you checked it?
Do you have the gauges to be able to check charge pressure? I haven't found my manual yet as to how so someone else will have to provide the hows and other stuff regarding that info.
If the charge pressure is LOW then this is what the manual wants you to check next.
Next check the inlet filter and then charge relief valves. You state these are good.
Inspect the implement relief valve and make sure that it is okay.
Inspect the charge pump and make sure it is okay. Now if the charge pressure is okay then check system pressure. If the system pressure is low then inspect charge check valves.
Okay that is what my manual says. I'm somewhat tired ( I get up at 3:00 a.m.). You may want to read the post about Matt G.'s 1811 hydro problems. It is posted just under your question. Maybe there is something in there that may help you. It could actually be the charge pump only I don't think so. The charge pump should show a weakness a lot sooner then when the system gets hot. Also, is it operating temperature or truly HOT? There is a difference.
I wonder if perhaps your implement relief spring may be sticking open. Thanks for letting me ramble... too dang pooped to think much more about hydros... been working around them for eight hours today. Let me know if this helps or hinders.
mhomrighausen
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Robert V. If'n you don't want that 782D let me know and I'll find it a real good home. I'm thinking of one great and kind-hearted and very deserving person right now. (Not me... mine is slowly making it's way to Iowa.)
mhomrighausen
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One quick thing.... then I'm going to fall asleep watching TV...
Your two charge check valves are "good". Try either the charge relief valve or the implement relief valve as stated earlier. Check them for sticking. You never said either how long the previous oil and what condition it was in before it was changed. Or what kind... or how long the tractor could have been sitting... etc.
Just gotta narrow all the variations of ... "Just what in the world ... " Doing that will make this much easier.
Your two charge check valves are "good". Try either the charge relief valve or the implement relief valve as stated earlier. Check them for sticking. You never said either how long the previous oil and what condition it was in before it was changed. Or what kind... or how long the tractor could have been sitting... etc.
Just gotta narrow all the variations of ... "Just what in the world ... " Doing that will make this much easier.
rbedell
Well-known member
Robert V:
First, welcome to the forum.
I agree with Myron. You have to have the correct hydraulic fluid and correct hydraulic oil filter. Since you changed the check valves with no difference in response, then that rules that out. First step to resolving this issue, is to do these two things first. That is unless you positively know you have the correct fluid and filter.
The deck and hydro are two seperate issues as Myron stated.
First, welcome to the forum.
I agree with Myron. You have to have the correct hydraulic fluid and correct hydraulic oil filter. Since you changed the check valves with no difference in response, then that rules that out. First step to resolving this issue, is to do these two things first. That is unless you positively know you have the correct fluid and filter.
The deck and hydro are two seperate issues as Myron stated.
mhomrighausen
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I think what Robert actually means is the deck will not raise/lower (move) properly or at all. I've noticed throughout the years that sometimes we mean something else when we speak or write and yet what others see or hear is totally different.
If this is the case then Robert is asking about a ported hydro system. That said then he is asking for what I am trying to help him resolve.... a hydraulic issue. I may be wrong ..... most of the time .... maybe.... sometimes ...not.... I am going by my training and my Sauer Sunstrand manuals.
Robert, my good man, are you out there yet and how is the Cub doing? One quick thing... I'm not sure if the implement relief spring is still available through Cub Cadet however a John Deere dealer can still get them.
If this is the case then Robert is asking about a ported hydro system. That said then he is asking for what I am trying to help him resolve.... a hydraulic issue. I may be wrong ..... most of the time .... maybe.... sometimes ...not.... I am going by my training and my Sauer Sunstrand manuals.
Robert, my good man, are you out there yet and how is the Cub doing? One quick thing... I'm not sure if the implement relief spring is still available through Cub Cadet however a John Deere dealer can still get them.
mhomrighausen
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Roland B. Not a problem. I've heard many people say that I am so different when I write things. A coworker once told me that she had to reread one of my poems five times. First two ... didn't get it so #3...sentence by sentence. 4th time slowly and verse by verse to begin seeing a picture. Finally on the fifth time she said she could read it and actually visualize everything as if a story was unfolding. (I offered to give her private lessons (joking of course). She declined and said to never change my style of writing. She said that once she understood what I had written then she said it was like her own mind was showing a movie while she was reading. In all fairness though I had to read what Robert was saying a couple of times. One of the great things of having so many wonderful members on the Cub forums is the collective wisdom we all contribute in our own way. I just hope 'tween us all we can get Robert's Cub up and running... soon.
Oh, Robert V. If'n you could also.... post some pics of that Cub. Another thing two.... good used ported hydros are available from some of the sponsors and from some of the members that part Cubs. SOooooo... don't be afraid to buy that 782D and give it a good loving home. Use the hydro problem which is easily repairable as a bargaining tool and get that Cub to your home and garage A.S.A.P.
Oh, Robert V. If'n you could also.... post some pics of that Cub. Another thing two.... good used ported hydros are available from some of the sponsors and from some of the members that part Cubs. SOooooo... don't be afraid to buy that 782D and give it a good loving home. Use the hydro problem which is easily repairable as a bargaining tool and get that Cub to your home and garage A.S.A.P.
Thanks for all of the info guys. All of the parts that wre installed are form a localCub dealer. He said the fluid did not look bad when he drained it and he did pull the back plate. I also found out that this problem started after he replaced the dirve shaft. He siad the bolts came loose and the shaft was flopping around. He used the tractor for several weeks after that with no problems. I hven't checked anything on the tractor yet, and am hoping to get a price from him soon. He would like me to make an offer and I have no idea what it is worth. He has the sheetmetal mostly off now, and the side panels are at differnet location. I appreciate all of the help and knowledge on this site and hope to get to some events next year.
Robert V: If the engine is running good, I'd offer him somewhere between $500.00 & $750.00 for it. It would be worth more than that if it didn't have the hydro problems. Tell him if you have to fix it yourself, you can't pay "top" dollar. Then go to www.binderbooks.com and order yourself the Operator's Manual, Parts Manual, and Service manual. Note: the Kubota Engine has separate service manuals. After you get the tractor and the manuals, then just follow the instructions and you will likely solve the hydro problem. Your dealer apparently is unable to do that, so let it cost him....
Myron B
CCSupplyRoom
Myron B
CCSupplyRoom
mhomrighausen
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Robert V. I definitely agree with Myron B.
Roland B. Sometimes you just make me smile.... in a different sort of way.
Roland B. Sometimes you just make me smile.... in a different sort of way.
rbedell
Well-known member
Robert V:
Sounds like once the oil gets hot, then the system looses pressure. Attached, is a cut-away of the CC Hyrdo Fluid Circuit.
The best as I can see, the symptoms you describe, result in this:
(A) Incorrect Fluid
(B) Incorrect or partially plugged Hydro Filter
(C) The Spirol Pin on drive shaft is partially or totally missing (see red arrow)
(D) The Charge Pump itself won't produce the pressure from having Sloppy Tolerances.
Someone, will have to spend some time with some tools, gauges, and meters to determine the problem.
Sounds like once the oil gets hot, then the system looses pressure. Attached, is a cut-away of the CC Hyrdo Fluid Circuit.
The best as I can see, the symptoms you describe, result in this:
(A) Incorrect Fluid
(B) Incorrect or partially plugged Hydro Filter
(C) The Spirol Pin on drive shaft is partially or totally missing (see red arrow)
(D) The Charge Pump itself won't produce the pressure from having Sloppy Tolerances.
Someone, will have to spend some time with some tools, gauges, and meters to determine the problem.
mhomrighausen
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Robert V. What I have been telling you all along is what Roland is saying only Roland is NOT apparently wanting to look into the possibility of an implement relief valve malfunctioning. Roland just because the manual states that the charge pump can go bad does not mean that is the first thing to look for. If I remember correctly an implement spring is under three dollars plus tax at the local green dealer. Cheap item compared to what Roland is saying about spending some time with meters, gauges, etc. Believe me when I say that I would rather spend three dollars versus buying the gauges or paying a shop to do the work. Charge Pumps seldom go bad. If properly maintained the charge pump will like the rest of the system last the lifetime of the whole 15U. I have asked several people including engineers at work about charge pumps and the rest of a hydro system. Also, oil is supposed to get warm NOT hot. If the system is getting hot then that will cause a charge pump and even the rest of the system to not work correctly. PLEASE DON'T try and make this a hard problem. As I've been taught and I'm sure other have been also ... look for the simplest solutions first. Try to determine just what is the cause of the system getting hot first. That is if the oil is truly getting hot or just up to operating temperature.
Another thing is Robert V. You have not truly defined my original question and the Roland asked it again. Is the oil truly getting HOT or just up to operating temperature? How long does it take to get to the temperature? What kind of work is being done with it? Maybe if you do as I suggested earlier and read Matt G.'s posting about his 1811 problems you would have some input. It may truly be someting as simple s neutral adjust, change oil filter.
Okay. NOW with this I am definitely speaking from experience. Many years ago when my ex and I first got the 682 (Series 1) one early afternoon our young kids and I hooked up the trailer and proceeded to head to Miles, Iowa which was approximately seven miles away. We ran that little hydro almost non stop that summer afternoon to Miles and back. About the last two and a half miles miles the oil started getting very warm. That was from being used constantly over a period of time. The hydro started to slip. Needless to say I thought we had ruined the dang thing. Nope the dealer said to consider changing oil and filter although not necessary due to the good maintenance we kept on that Cub Cadet. We did change oil and filter though. Absolutely no damage. Remember how the 656 and other hydros would do the same thing under constant load? I.E. picking corn with a mounted picker. Great Caeser's ghost... omigod... those hydro charge pumps didn't need immediate rebuilding.
Now summing up.... Robert V. I would like to know just what you actually mean by the oil getting HOT. Then what I would do is this. Obtain as Myron Bounds stated earlier ALL the manuals on this tractor. Read them. If you want to do something while waiting on the manuals then change oil and filter with the proper oil. Why you ask? Good question. A piece of contaminant may have gotten in the system. Could be wrong filter and oil. Second.... check and clean ALL check and charge valves. Roland B. posted a good way to clean them on Matt G.'s posting on the 1811. While you are doing this inspect ALL the linkage on the shifting mechanism and the lift linkage system.
Always look for the simplest of things first. It is dang hard to diagnose without actually seeing and listening to anything run. Hope this helps.
Another thing is Robert V. You have not truly defined my original question and the Roland asked it again. Is the oil truly getting HOT or just up to operating temperature? How long does it take to get to the temperature? What kind of work is being done with it? Maybe if you do as I suggested earlier and read Matt G.'s posting about his 1811 problems you would have some input. It may truly be someting as simple s neutral adjust, change oil filter.
Okay. NOW with this I am definitely speaking from experience. Many years ago when my ex and I first got the 682 (Series 1) one early afternoon our young kids and I hooked up the trailer and proceeded to head to Miles, Iowa which was approximately seven miles away. We ran that little hydro almost non stop that summer afternoon to Miles and back. About the last two and a half miles miles the oil started getting very warm. That was from being used constantly over a period of time. The hydro started to slip. Needless to say I thought we had ruined the dang thing. Nope the dealer said to consider changing oil and filter although not necessary due to the good maintenance we kept on that Cub Cadet. We did change oil and filter though. Absolutely no damage. Remember how the 656 and other hydros would do the same thing under constant load? I.E. picking corn with a mounted picker. Great Caeser's ghost... omigod... those hydro charge pumps didn't need immediate rebuilding.
Now summing up.... Robert V. I would like to know just what you actually mean by the oil getting HOT. Then what I would do is this. Obtain as Myron Bounds stated earlier ALL the manuals on this tractor. Read them. If you want to do something while waiting on the manuals then change oil and filter with the proper oil. Why you ask? Good question. A piece of contaminant may have gotten in the system. Could be wrong filter and oil. Second.... check and clean ALL check and charge valves. Roland B. posted a good way to clean them on Matt G.'s posting on the 1811. While you are doing this inspect ALL the linkage on the shifting mechanism and the lift linkage system.
Always look for the simplest of things first. It is dang hard to diagnose without actually seeing and listening to anything run. Hope this helps.
mhomrighausen
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Roland B. You were really right on in your suggestion when you informed Matt G. to check the Charge pump weren't you? NOT!!! Just exactly how much hands on experience do you really have with hydrostatic pumps/motors. I through the blessings of being employed with a tremendously wonderful company actually work for the company that makes the 15U. Soooo... it would seem that even though I admit that I am not a true expert that I have the capability to ask true experts. I am constantly being trained by very qualified people on how to diagnose/trouble shoot hydro problems.
In all truthfulness. Your diagrams really are a help to ALL members. Don't stop doing that. Between ALL our contributions we make this one heck of a site to gain knowledge of Cub Cadets and just how to keep them running.
In all truthfulness. Your diagrams really are a help to ALL members. Don't stop doing that. Between ALL our contributions we make this one heck of a site to gain knowledge of Cub Cadets and just how to keep them running.
Personally I'd like to thank all you guys for helping out, It's much appreciated.
