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1650 Cub w/ K341 Engine (Bad Compression)

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gmcfall

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
24
displayname
Gary McFall
I bought a 1650 that started at the sale, but wouldn't start once I got it home. I tried part after part w/ no luck. Finally took it to a repair shop where I learned that the engine has very low compression. They've estimated $700-1000 for repair. I've already got $800 invested in the tractor (w/ mower & snowblower). Suggestions, including reasonably priced rebuilding, new shortblocks, parting out, etc?
 
In what part of the world are you located?

Run, don't walk, from that repair shop.
Do they even know there is a compression release feature that will not allow for a normal compression check??

What "part after part" did you replace?

If it ran when you got it it will run now.
1st off, it sounds like basic fuel and ignition system maintenance is in order.
 
I think I understand both sides of this situation:

I work at a lawn mower dealership. From their point of view, you, the customer wants your approximately 40 year old tractor to work and perform like new. Or as near to like new as possible. And they don't want it coming back on them because they cut corners to make the job cheaper. [like using chinese parts.] They also probably have much more experience diagnosing the problems of machines made in the last 20 years. For instance, the intricacies of diagnosing a battery/points type ignition may not be within their realm of expertise. (The other mechanic where I work, has several more years experience in the mower repair business than I do lets me do all the old Kohler battery ignition work that comes in this shop. because he knows I have those same engines at home and probably can diagnose them easier and quicker.)

About 8 or 10 years ago I actually overhauled a M16 for my neighbor across the street. In a Wheel Horse. Just the parts bill for the job was over $800. (He wanted all OEM Kohler parts, and it needed a camshaft, That is why we took it apart.) The job did not include boring the cylinder or turning the crank, but it did include a new rod and rings, a valve job and a gasket set.

From the other point of view, you own a 40 year old tractor that is still capable of doing good work-if only it would work at all.

My advice, is if you are really wanting to keep and use this tractor, invest in the manuals, the tools and the time into learning what it takes to keep your tractor running. And the bonus is the satisfaction you get in knowing you did it yourself.

These guys on here will be glad to help as much as they can.

p.s. Low compression in those engines is usually the valves. Either they are out of adjustment or the valves and seats need work.
 
In what part of the world are you located?

Run, don't walk, from that repair shop.
Do they even know there is a compression release feature that will not allow for a normal compression check??

What "part after part" did you replace?

If it ran when you got it it will run now.
1st off, it sounds like basic fuel and ignition system maintenance is in order.
Wisconsin. They're a busy Cub dealer that's been in business for decades, so I suspect they know the ins 'n outs of taking a compression check. Ignition switch, PTO switch, wiring harness, regularor, battery, neutral safety switch, carburetor, battery and a host of non-operating parts that were missing. Not the way a trained mechanic would proceed, but I'm anything but that.
 
I think I understand both sides of this situation:

I work at a lawn mower dealership. From their point of view, you, the customer wants your approximately 40 year old tractor to work and perform like new. Or as near to like new as possible. And they don't want it coming back on them because they cut corners to make the job cheaper. [like using chinese parts.] They also probably have much more experience diagnosing the problems of machines made in the last 20 years. For instance, the intricacies of diagnosing a battery/points type ignition may not be within their realm of expertise. (The other mechanic where I work, has several more years experience in the mower repair business than I do lets me do all the old Kohler battery ignition work that comes in this shop. because he knows I have those same engines at home and probably can diagnose them easier and quicker.)

About 8 or 10 years ago I actually overhauled a M16 for my neighbor across the street. In a Wheel Horse. Just the parts bill for the job was over $800. (He wanted all OEM Kohler parts, and it needed a camshaft, That is why we took it apart.) The job did not include boring the cylinder or turning the crank, but it did include a new rod and rings, a valve job and a gasket set.

From the other point of view, you own a 40 year old tractor that is still capable of doing good work-if only it would work at all.

My advice, is if you are really wanting to keep and use this tractor, invest in the manuals, the tools and the time into learning what it takes to keep your tractor running. And the bonus is the satisfaction you get in knowing you did it yourself.

These guys on here will be glad to help as much as they can.

p.s. Low compression in those engines is usually the valves. Either they are out of adjustment or the valves and seats need work.
Thanks for your understanding, insight and kind response to a novice Cub lover. I agree with what you suspect about the repair shop. I'd like to get it running because I know that once it does, regardless of its age, it will be of better quality than most new garden tractors. That aside, I'm a retired guy who was raised on a farm w/ IH tractors.

I bought/restored a Cub 100 in the middle 80's that was burned up in a fire, something that gave me a lot of pride. I was hoping to do something similar w/ this tractor, given the seller's statement that all it needed was some TLC.

When I bought the tractor, the seller touched a loose wire somewhere under the hood to get it started. I should have paid more attention to why/where he did that. That’s part of the reason I replaced the wiring harness early in the game. Anyway, since it did run at that time, I’m stuck as to why it won’t start, and I don’t have the skills to troubleshoot what’s wrong, I’ll probably have the dealer troubleshoot & hopefully get it started, letting him know that I won’t hold him responsible for the compression issue. If it starts, but runs poorly, I’ll probably go down the path of buying the parts/tools/manuals needed to overhaul the engine, something I’ve done before.

Thanks again for your reply. Very appreciated.
 
I had a similar situation with a later model cub. I found the ground cable that bolted to the engine block was loose. even if it is tight, I would clean the connection. without a good clean ground, the electrical system can't work. I always try the easy inexpensive stuff first. Good Luck !
 
Well you have to start somewhere.
1st off, using a simple test light, do you have stead (light will be on) 12 volts at the positive side of the coil with the key on?

If so, does the light flash when cranking the engine over with the light on the negative side?
 
I had a similar situation with a later model cub. I found the ground cable that bolted to the engine block was loose. even if it is tight, I would clean the connection. without a good clean ground, the electrical system can't work. I always try the easy inexpensive stuff first. Good Luck !
Thanks. Will check that when I get the Cub back. :)
 
Well you have to start somewhere.
1st off, using a simple test light, do you have stead (light will be on) 12 volts at the positive side of the coil with the key on?

If so, does the light flash when cranking the engine over with the light on the negative side?
Thanks. I'm weak on electrical troubleshooting. Will check that out when I get the Cub back next week.
 
Gary - not sure where you're at with your troubleshooting but when I read thru all the posts it sounds to me like a possible solenoid issue. I don't see "solenoid" under your list of parts replaced.

Was the hood support plate missing or removed when the PO started the tractor? The solenoid is mounted under the dash and behind the hood support plate. If you have the key switch in the on position and jumper across the 2 hot wires on the solenoid the engine will start and run (assuming everything else is operating ok). I suspect this is what the PO did to start it.

Now, having said all this, the repair shop should have discovered this (solenoid) unless they just jumped into the engine before doing anything else.

Also, you said you replaced a host of parts. Hopefully you only used OEM parts, especially for things like the key switch. There are many key switches out there that look the same (I believe it's got 5 prongs) but they don't coincide with the wires in the connector plug. (If you know what you're doing you can swap the wires around in the plug to match the switch but lets not get into that - I mostly mention it for others reading this post so they are aware for their future troubleshooting that you can't assume the plug is wired correctly. You have to check each wire against the contacts are the switch, which are stamped with a letter).
 
Gary - not sure where you're at with your troubleshooting but when I read thru all the posts it sounds to me like a possible solenoid issue. I don't see "solenoid" under your list of parts replaced.

Was the hood support plate missing or removed when the PO started the tractor? The solenoid is mounted under the dash and behind the hood support plate. If you have the key switch in the on position and jumper across the 2 hot wires on the solenoid the engine will start and run (assuming everything else is operating ok). I suspect this is what the PO did to start it.

Now, having said all this, the repair shop should have discovered this (solenoid) unless they just jumped into the engine before doing anything else.

Also, you said you replaced a host of parts. Hopefully you only used OEM parts, especially for things like the key switch. There are many key switches out there that look the same (I believe it's got 5 prongs) but they don't coincide with the wires in the connector plug. (If you know what you're doing you can swap the wires around in the plug to match the switch but lets not get into that - I mostly mention it for others reading this post so they are aware for their future troubleshooting that you can't assume the plug is wired correctly. You have to check each wire against the contacts are the switch, which are stamped with a letter).
Thank you for your helpful reply. I made an error w/ my original post in that I replaced the solenoid, not the regulator. The hood support plate was missing. I was able to find one, but it cost $35. You bring up a good point about OEM parts. I bought the majority of them via C&S Specialties, a vendor linked on this forum. I hope they sell only OEM parts. I'll double-check, though, because I see value in the concern that you raised.

Thanks again for your reply. When I get it started, I'll reply with the root cause(s).
 
Gary - if you buy your parts from CC Specialties (linked at the top of the page) you are buying the best. Charlie is the owner, aka Digger in his posting on this website. Charlie sells OEM parts as available and has some reproduction parts (better than original). His website is very good about identifying them.

I can't wait to hear what you found when you do get it started.
 
Gary - if you buy your parts from CC Specialties (linked at the top of the page) you are buying the best. Charlie is the owner, aka Digger in his posting on this website. Charlie sells OEM parts as available and has some reproduction parts (better than original). His website is very good about identifying them.

I can't wait to hear what you found when you do get it started.
Good to know. Thanks!
 
valve job and rings are cheap to restore compression. Do a leak down test to confirm wear the leak is coming from.
 
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